Podcast Transcript

Sean: [00:00:00] G’day everybody, and welcome to the ScaleUps Podcast, where we help first time Founders learn the secrets of scaling so that they can fulfill the potential of their business, make bigger decisions with greater confidence and of course, maximise the value they can create in the world. I am your host, Sean Steele, and I'm joined today by Ephram Stephenson, serial Entrepreneur, and Founder and seller of several recruitment businesses in the last decade.

Ephram that includes most recently Kona & Co but before that Design and Construct Australia, Design and Construct UK. I know there was a rebranding to Building Careers Australia, 4 Twenty consulting, Ingenii Resources, Preston James and InsurRec, and now another recruitment start-up called Collar Group. Is that right? You have problems sitting still, don't you?

Ephram: [00:01:08] I do. Absolutely. Yeah. Grand old age of 44 and 12 recruitment businesses under my belt, mate. I've been telling the wife though, this is the final business now in regards to recruitment. I’ve kind of learnt the craft along the way, and worked in multiple businesses across different revenue streams, and now feel as if I'm armed with all the tools that I need to grow even a bigger brand.

Sean: [00:01:36] Well, I just have this sneaking suspicion that you said this before that this is the last one and it kind of sounds like… yep, yep last one, sure. Yeah. I'm with you.

Ephram: [00:01:47] Yeah. Look, it's an ongoing conversation. My last time around when I saw that a few of the businesses, I was five weeks into a year-long sabbatical and I was laid on a beach in that chair, from my father-in-law's place over to Hawaii and we're on the big island and it just so happened we’re in Kona. So, as I say five weeks on board, you can finish the rest and Kona & Co was founded. So yeah, look, it doesn't keep me a long to keep…  I guess getting bored in itchy feet. Anyway, obviously we spoken quite a few times, mate. You know, the nature of the industry, there's huge opportunity out there and wherever there's opportunity, then there's a real need for, I guess, business and entrepreneurs to really step up and capitalise on the current market.

Sean: [00:02:36] Yeah, when you see the problem, that’s the nature of the entrepreneur, right? Say a problem need to fix it. I have this strong desire and urgent itch that something needs to be done about it. To give people a sense of your journey. This has happened over 17 years. You've done through your teams, over 10,000 permanent placements and 25,000 temporary placements. And something that really strikes me about that is that recruitment's not always thought of as a sector out there doing good, but I think those numbers are remarkable because when you're helping people to get into jobs that are more fulfilling. … I mean, we've probably all been through them, that can be absolutely life changing. And that doesn't mean that it has to be a charity, but it can be meaningful in the process. And I think those numbers are really remarkable. Can you take me back and kick us off with what led you to recruitment in the first place?

Ephram: [00:03:28] Yeah, absolutely. So, as you can tell, I'm originally from the UK. Although I have lived in Australia now longer than I've lived in the UK, so, putting all into context. I was born in the UK, lived in Jordan, and we were there for about four years. My dad was in construction. My grandfather was in construction. So, generations after generations. So, I always had this passion for construction, moved back to the UK, then moved to South Africa, there for about four years. And then to Harare, Zimbabwe for about 18 months, back to the UK. And then at the grand old age of 24, decided that Australia was calling, and I was going to come across basically as a backpacker on a working holiday visa. And so, myself and my best mate at the time, we were pretty much sold all my worldly possessions which at the time wasn't a great deal. So, I think I landed in the country with about $500 to my name, never worked in recruitment. I was desperate to obviously to get a job that was going to enable me really to stay in the country and obviously from a sponsorship point of view. So as soon as I landed in Sydney, it was my first port of call. The intention was travelling around Australia and do the backpacker thing. And six weeks in, I was stuck. I was trapped. So, you know, Sydney had me… it was just such a beautiful city. I mean, come from the Northwest of England, which obviously had its problems with regards to careers. And obviously, you know, you would really have to travel probably an hour or two hours every day. Which in the UK is a big thing. I know over here it's not necessarily frowned upon, but, I got my first job in recruitment as a telemarketer and I was paid $13.50 an hour. And my job was to read through the Sydney Morning Herald on a Friday, even though it wasn't sold to the public till Saturday, it was released into news agencies. And I would call around and actually set appointments for the recruiting agency that I joined at the time. There was five staff and I did that for two weeks and I was setting the appointments and the consultants were there going out and trying to pitch for the work. And then they were coming back and saying, unfortunately this lead is not warm enough. And they haven't been qualified. So, for me as you know, my background is predominantly all sales. I worked for AXA insurance in the UK, work for newspaper sales, work for the largest holiday home provider in the UK. So, all sales or account management, and I said I beg to differ, you know, basically I questioned that they…I thought they were quality leads and you know, also said to the owners of the business two directors at the time, Phil and Boran… well guys, let me have a go, let me go do recruitment. You know, you've got nothing to lose. And they then kind of flipped it background on me and said, well, yeah, fair enough, we actually haven't got anything to lose, so why don't we put you on commission only? And at the time, backpacker $13.50 an hour was just scraping by. So look, I backed myself and I said, yeah, let me have a crack at it. And fortunately for me, for the first month I was a top biller of the business, and I was the top biller for the next 24 months. And you know, it was very much a “there's a phone there's a day kind of get on with it”… you know, no disrespect to the guys, they’ve built a phenomenal brand and it's actually one of the largest recruitment agencies now over in China, it's a company called Atomic. They've closed down here in Australia, but going absolutely gangbusters over in China. I think they've got something like 300-400 staff. All recruiters working for them. So, it kind of gives you an idea. But that time when I joined, it was five of us, we grew my team to a team of five. And there's like most businesses going through a scale or basically, scaling up, they probably just grew too quickly, too soon, Sean, and being on commission only, what was happening was unfortunately my commissions were coming in and I was expecting quite a large paychecks and that wasn't happening. So, I decided to set up my first agency now with just shy of two and a half years worth of recruitment experience, my first business, which was Design and Construct from a home office at the time I was living in.

Sean: [00:07:25] And did you start with that because of the upbringing that you had from the building … you just kind of understood it or what was that just a market opportunity?

Ephram: [00:07:35] Yeah. Look, I think more so passion, the passion was there, a lot of my friends in the UK are all tradies, you know, carpenters, joiners, electricians, whatever. So, it's always kind of the topic of conversation whenever you're speaking to people and for me to actually find that kind of passion for property construction. And also, that kind of combined hand-in-hand with sales and that account management and like you correctly said, mate, the only reason, the whole reason why I'm in recruitment is, it's such a rewarding career. You know, I've got people still reaching out to me now, you know, 17 years later.

We might have placed 17 years ago, I might have recruited for them 17 years ago. Perfect example is a company called ExO Works, and I believe you obviously, you know those guys quite well, Sean. ExO, Emily Sidney-Smith is the CEO. I recruited for 15 years ago, and we haven't spoken in 15 years. And when I launched Kona & Co during COVID, she was one of our first clients in which he reached out to me. Hey, Ephram we haven’t spoken in 15 years, you did a great job for us a long time ago. And I’m now the CEO of the ExO Works and we're keen to use a reputable recruitment partner and, you know, that was a very successful partnership. And so, I think it goes to show that, like you were saying, it is a very rewarding industry. If you treat everyone as you expect to be treated, then you will go a long way in this industry, absolutely. There is an old saying and I’ve said this on a few interviews previously is; you are only as good as your last placement, and it is so true, because if you keep that benchmark of an exceptionally high level, then you always do the right thing, then ultimately that's what recruitment is all about. It's about finding the individual, obviously placing them into a home with a company that doesn't have a revolving door. And I think that's testament that I’ve always set up in business. You know, we’re one of the recruitment network. I can't say that because I've said that every single one of my agencies, but we offer a 12-month replacement guarantee. The reason why we do that is, is two-fold; from the client perspective, it shows our clients that the candidates that we're representing are looking for stability, looking for security, not fly by night. It's not just looking to come in and obviously, potentially dip their toe in the water for three-six months. So, that's our reputation. That's our livelihood that we're backing ourselves with the clients. From a candidate perspective though, it also works in exactly the same way, you know, that we're not being paid to recruit for a company that has a revolving door, that has really bad staff retention. And I think that works really well in this current environment where you've got candidates and clients alike, both really appreciating the service but also the aftercare that you provide, and again, like you said, recruitment's not difficult. It's about doing the right thing, and again, making sure that you're looking after everyone.

Sean: [00:10:32] It’s a very similar industry when you think about that to real estate in that, it's a very personal relationship. You're dealing with both the vendor and the potential buyers of the properties and those people that stay in and get their 10,000 hours up and stay in contact with people and have always done it with great respect and faith and diligence in the process. They're the ones that, you know, 10-15 years later have got just people coming to them constantly all the time, because they were always treating people well. They just stayed in the game and they were always doing a great job. And as a result, you have this kind of this pool that builds of goodwill, as well as good outcomes.

Ephram: [00:11:14] Yeah, and it's so great. It's so true. Like it's, you always treat people and again, it's just coming back to exactly what I was saying. You always treat people as you would expect to be treated and within the world of recruitment, it is so inherently with cowboys, there's just dodgy recruitment agencies…

Sean: [00:11:36] Low barrier to entry. Anything where there's a low barrier, right?

Ephram: [00:11:38] Wherever you look. So much of real estate is similar to any other industry… yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think because of that, it's all based on your reputation, it's your relationship that you have with your candidates, with your clients, with your external suppliers, with your internal employees. I'm fortunate, I've got over 100 recommendations on my LinkedIn profile, where 80% of those people I've been in business with or basically have previously worked for me. And I think that speaks testament of the type of culture that we create within our businesses. And, I guess ultimately, the opportunities that we know we allow people to take.

Sean: [00:12:18] You’ve clearly grown a lot of different brands. Can you give us just a sense for the audience's benefit, can you give them a sense of perhaps one of the journeys from a numbers perspective? So, whether that's candidates placed or revenue or FTE or however you'd like to tell the story, just to give them a sense of the kind of scale of what kind of recruitment business look like when it gets going?

Ephram: [00:12:34] Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, Design and Construct is

always going to be my baby. That was my first business. And we grew that very successfully. And so, one man band, I was living in Piermont at the time in the city when I launched. And so that's in Sydney. And anyone who knows the area quite well, there’s a lot of distraction, there's been a 24-year-old that is probably not the best place to launch a business. So, I decided to move to a place called Waitara, which is an hour north of Sydney. I'm not going to say in the middle of nowhere, but you know, not far from being in the middle of nowhere for exactly that reason, I was there for the first 12 months of setting up the home business. And I doubled my revenue year on year for the first four years. Took it to a team of six and then GFC came about, so 2008-2009 or just 12 months prior to purchasing my first property, was engaged to get married…I had just taken on basically doubled the size of my team, new office lease and…yeah, absolutely, and then the GFC obviously turned up and it was really tough. Like I'm not going to lie and COVID has been challenging, but I think the GFC was kind of overnight, it was tough. It was tougher in a sense that I didn't have the experience. I think I’m more resilient, more experienced as …certainly it presents these challenges, there's no issue, but I think at the time it was kind of…you potentially going to lose everything here, like a lot of other business owners. So, batten down the hatches, went from six down to three and really rode that out for about three years and very comfortable, decent business, 4 employees, very low overhead and so four, including myself, very low overhead and making some decent revenue. What was happening though, is a lot of the larger companies were actually knocking on our door and asking us because of our reputation to actually recruit for them as well. And so made a conscious decision to really ramp things up in the space of, I guess, four and a half, say five years, we took it from a $700k business, to doing about 14 million turnover. Now, that had gone from one small office in north Sydney to open up in Sydney, then went to Brisbane, from Brisbane we went to Melbourne, from Melbourne we went to London, and then from London, we went to Perth. We probably should have done it the other way around, but look, it was exciting, it was fun. The brand was an award-winning brand. We won the Best Training in the whole of Australia. So, Recruitment International Award 2017, took that prestigious award home, which you know… and I have spoken about LMS is before learning management systems and training and development, and that's still one of my proudest moments.

Sean: [00:15:21] Critical and so critical in a business that's fundamentally where your training and your investment in you and your personal development in you actually turns up the next day in the next phone call. It's immediate feedback. It's immediate results. I love that about sales, that it’s fundamentally built on influencing and communication.

Ephram: [00:15:41] Yeah 100%. Absolutely. I guess just bringing through, you know, tomorrow's managers today and also bring any more experienced people who sometimes may come in with a little bit, more of the tunnel vision or they've kind of been taught to do it a certain way, it might not necessarily fit well within your ethics or your business or whatever the case may be. So, training is absolutely fundamental. Three years in a row, we won LinkedIn most Socially Engaged Businesses, which for the size of our business was again a huge achievement. So that's basically over a five-year period, and then 2017-18 started looking at VC (venture capital), so then we took it from a 14 million business to a 60 million business in literally 18 months. There wasn't a great deal that change, you know, I sold the UK entity. We invested heavily into new technology over here in Australia. I actually hired an individual who was at the time a global record builder for a company called Hays, and they built over 3 million gross profit in their last financial year at Hays. So, for me to then obviously partner with an investor who assisted me going out to market, hiring the best people in the marketplace. We then actually created three of the businesses within the Building Careers Group. We rebranded to Building Careers, Australia. We had basically an entity running out of New South Wales, obviously the WA business as well. And then from there, as I say, within 18 months of a business-friendly business, over here in Perth, generating over 50 million in its first 18 months. I think it's very impressive.

Sean: [00:17:19] Wow. I mean, let's just break that down a bit because that is just staggering. In the services-business like recruitment, staggering amount to do. How did you think about it? I mean, how many people did you take on all of a sudden, like actually just a scale up on a people perspective, like that's the whole engine in and of itself. How did you do that?

Ephram: [00:17:38] Yeah. Well, I guess she recruitment, it's all about rainmaking. There's contracts, obviously companies will always try and put restrictions of trade and restraints in place. But with consultants, the clients are loyal to the consultants. The candidates are loyal to the consultant. They're not really necessarily loyal to the brand. And because of that, ultimately, if you're going out and identifying rainmakers, whether they're doing 1 million in gross profit or whether they're doing 3 million in gross profit, in essence, you've got to have a three to six months caveat there where the restrictions are obviously going to take place but literally coming out on the other side of that, it's pretty much expected to have another 3 million business or another million-dollar business at the end of that. So, for us, it was more about, we found the individual that we wanted to build a business around. Look, we're not talking huge numbers in regards to number of employees. Let's just say, grew to a team of 20 within the 18 months, and you would have your rain maker, you would then have your account managers managing those obviously accounts. And then underneath them, you would have the team of resources, and compliance administration return to work et cetera. So, for us, it was in essence going out and buying a business, but we weren't actually physically buying anything. We were literally setting somebody up in business on the road who was capable of generating those types of fees. And I guess that's the wonderful world of recruitment. Now bear in mind, that is all revenue base, obviously from a temporary point of view. Obviously the company pays for the candidates, obviously wage costs before we even get paid. Some of the larger accounts that we have, they might be 40 days - 45 days a month, whatever the case may be. So, you do obviously need that capital to carry those salaries for a period of time. But you're looking at, on average, it was about 12% profit. So very, very successful and very profitable business.  

Sean: [00:19:28] Sorry, can I just stop you there? But just in relation to the working capital side, how do you end up… did you have to take on external funding to manage that or is it essentially balanced between using cash that you're receiving from a permanent placement basis that comes in a lot faster and using that to actually cashflow the contractors whilst you're waiting to be paid on those?

Ephram: [00:19:50] Yeah. Great question. So, depending on the size of the business, depending on the clients and the nature of the industry is going to determine really whether you're using your own cash or whether you're using somebody else's cash to really scale. So, two-fold, there's a number of factoring businesses out there that purely specialise in recruitment that which will help you carry the cost of the wages and they may release 80% of the invoice value. Once payments made, then obviously the release of the other 20% minus their administration costs. The whole idea why I actually decided to partner with a VC was because they had pockets deeper than Oprah or so I was told. And from there basically, that's ultimately how you're able to scale a lot quicker without really covering the headaches. Having said that though, we've just scaled another business… so, the same business partner that I actually hired from being a global superstar, set her up in business. I've recently just exited a business, and stepped down. So, I think in 12 months we generated a 10mil business. So, there's options, there's ways of ultimately growing and scaling, it just really depends on the circumstances, depends on the clientele, and but also ultimately depends on the people that you actually have working in the business.

Sean: [00:21:11] Okay. Given that and given the number of businesses that you've scaled or that you built and sold. How did you think about differentiation? How did you think about being able to differentiate that business from its competitors in the market… where to your point, it's a crowded place. There's plenty of cowboys. The cream always rises to the top, but did you think about differentiation on a sector basis vs specific recruitment companies in that sector? Or did you have a unique approach that you applied to every business and that fundamentally created differentiation every time you replicated that, how did you think about that?

Ephram: [00:21:53] Yeah. The first business was Design and Construct. So exactly what it says on the tin, we were design and construction for everything within the built environment. Now that obviously came with these restrictions once we started looking at catering hospitality, mining, or oil and gas. You can get away with it to some extent, but obviously clients are going to ask specific questions. Your brand integrity is really going to be diluted. So that's why I've had multiple businesses. And the industry, we made a major shift about 10 years ago, where it was quite common for an agency to be more of a generic agency. So, Hays for example, you know Hays are Hays, but whereas now they’re probably known as Hays Property and Construction, Hays Accounting and Finance. So, they've gone from being a generic agency to areas of specialisation within those businesses. And ultimately, it's all about the individuals, you know, so I'm very fortunate that all of my businesses I've been able to partner with arguably the best. Well, the best consultants I've certainly ever come across and I'm obviously going to be biased. So, you know, I look at the Preston James business, that was a recruitment-to-recruitment business, irony I know, you're only a recruitment agency, but you have to go to an external recruitment agency to find your recruitment consultants. So, Preston James was arguably one of the most successful businesses I've actually had and been a part of, where I hired it basically went into business, hired an individual to run that business for me, basically went in as co-Founders. We then hired somebody who has equally impressive pedigree and experience over in Perth, and between the two of those, they were… again, I'll give you the Australia's best, recruitment to recruitment business. So, without those personalities in the business, the business would have really struggled to get off the ground and it's more about those two individuals. The same way 4 Twenty, the two guys over at 4 Twenty - Dan and Lee. Again, arguably the best that I've ever come across within their space. So, for me, it was a no brainer to partner with them and actually go out into business and launch a new brand. We then go basically onto the other businesses, the Kona & Co, like I already explained how Kona & Co was started when kind of bored on a beach, but the Kona & Co again, you know, is probably been one of the most enjoyable rides given that it was very short. It was only a year and a half. It was during COVID. I grew that basically from my home office to a operation in… so we had Melbourne, we had Sydney going at one point during the COVID, we had Brisbane and obviously now they've also got Perth. So, set that up very much as a partnership model. So, myself as the Founder, basically a 100% shareholding. I then basically went out to market and identified individuals I wanted to basically partner with and I wanted to provide them with an opportunity of going out into business themselves. So, from there basically, John Wilkinson, James Toth came onto the scene, he's now doing insurance and James and the rest of the management team have just done a management buyout.  For myself, I've Kona. We've then got Priscila, who's doing the accounting. Um, and then also a lady over here in Perth called Ellis, she's also doing insurance. So, between the four of those, I don't think there's probably any better recruiters within those fields, in the industry, never mind to go into business with. So again, it's kind of that talent magnet when… maybe it's my personality I don't know, but I always seem to attract these types of individuals that are keen to do something. And for me, that's where my passion is, you know, start-ups, scaling. The exit strategy, is it always at the forefront of my mind. It's moreso about the individual. So, then Tailored Resources that I've recently just stepped out of is exactly that, you know, Leslie, arguably the best recruiter that I've ever come across.

Ephram: [00:25:51] … global world record holder. Growing the business to a 10 million business in the first 11 months, which is extraordinary. You know, and as I mentioned to you previously, my personal circumstance has changed now, found out I'm going to be a Dad. So my wife's constantly on at me, all these start-ups, start-ups, start-ups, you know, when is it going to stop? So now, you know, the Collar Group is really the legacy business and alternately I'll be using everything that I've learned across all of the other 11 recruitment businesses, which have all been specialist. Collar Group is still going to be a specialist agency, but very much from a generic point of view. So, the brand that is the Collar Group, and all the industries that we recruit for will all really be headed up by an industry specialist.

Sean: [00:26:27] Got it. You know, what's really interesting about that is I think it's really instructive for many business leaders in that. It may seem to people more obvious that when you're looking to build a business, that you go and look for a superstar, but the number of times that I see Founders who really need a role to take them to the next level, who rather than actually proactively find out who is the best, go and have coffees, go and have meetings, see if I can attract the right person. Rather than putting an ad out, go through a normal process and get whatever happens to be sort of looking out there, rather than going, who is the best in this field? Like who's the person who's already been there who may have some interest in taking us on that journey so they can be ones who guide and lift us to the next level rather than maybe taking a first time rounder or just someone who happens to be available at the time. What do you think about that?

Ephram: [00:27:25] Yeah. Again, I guess it is industry specific, but I'm very much the latter in a sense that, I know who the main players are within the recruitment industry, and it's that planting of seed, right? You know, you might have an individual who's been XYZ, but their take home or their total reward for their revenue is probably around about let's say 40%. So, if they'd been billing 1 million, they'd take home 400k pounds, hypothetically speaking. Now as a business owner, you can certainly sharpen your pencil and probably get that closer to half a million in their pocket or maybe even a little bit more, depending on the circumstances, depending on the share structure, the equity offering, whatever the case may be, I mean, that's how you actually stack the deal. So, I think, you know for me personally, it's… you've got to have those conversations. You've got to be constantly striving to attract the best possible talent into your business, and if you feel that you can't, or you're reluctant to approach it, then you've got to be prepared for obviously a long road ahead, whether it's cutting corners, I think it's just smart business. I think ultimately, it's about surrounding yourself. We all hear it all the time, right? Surrounding yourself with people who are better than you.

Sean: [00:28:35] But this is particularly why I'm actually digging down on it is because it's very easy to … I mean, you hear it even in every interview with every successful Founder, it's about the team you bring around you, yada yada, yada, and we all kind of go; Yeah, yeah, no, I got it. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Great team gotta have a great team. Yep, good. But actually, it's very easy for people to revert to type and go; you know, maybe my business isn't that interesting or it's not all that attractive and maybe I don't deserve that person. But sometimes I actually think they’re not putting any effort to actually go and find out who the best people are and then not spending a percentage of their time in talent pooling, which I've always thought it was an incredibly important job of a Founder to be constantly talent pooling looking for who were the best players, who's already been there, who's kicking our arse at the moment. And is there somebody in there that I could attract to us because of the benefits that I can offer that actually would really help us accelerate on our journey and proactively go and find them.

Ephram: [00:29:30] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the saving graces throughout the whole COVID situation, I was in Melbourne at the time experiencing the five-month lock down there, was exactly that, you.

know, the talent mapping part of recruitment actually became an extension of our business from a revenue stream during covid. Appreciate, you might not be hiring right now. Things are obviously going to pick up, COVID is going to obviously disappear. Where do you want to position yourself, where do you want to be within the next 12-18 months? What we can do is actually provide you with a full industry competitive analysis, a talent map, obviously identifying some of these key areas and that in itself, which is normally an extension or a piece of an exec search piece or a search and selection piece actually became just part and parcel of the recruitment process. Again, it's about that value add, about that new USP, and you're right, people are going to sit there and question just how good their business is. They're always looking at their competitors to see how they stack it up against their competition. One thing, I've always been a big believer in is pioneering, is coming to the industry with new technology. I always talk about tech stack. I want the best tech stack in the market. You know, that's not just to sound like it's just for the sake of saying things. Personally I'm dyslexic, without Microsoft Word, I wouldn't be able to recruit, period. So for me, it's all about how can I help the process? How can I automate the process as much as possible. And I think once you actually do a thorough review of that business, you'll come up with so many different USP's or value adds that your competition just won't be doing it. But you've got to take that to market. I'm relentless on LinkedIn. I've got no shame when it comes to LinkedIn. For me, LinkedIn is a great moneymaking platform. It's all about brand, you know, people might say Ephram is posting something else again, and the reality of it is, is most of the brands that I've done behind the eleven businesses and obviously now the 12 has, all been done by myself. And then obviously once I've kind of got a little bit of a run going, then also hire someone to take it over. But for me, that's the most important part of me growing a business is having the industry know what you're good at, and what you're known for. So again, those value adds in USPs.

Sean: [00:31:49] Yep, love it. Let me ask you Ephram, you have no doubt had advice from all sorts of places and that might be from virtual mentors or peers or, and so on. But sometimes when you're going particularly through difficult times, some of that advice tends to bubble to the surface. You know, the stuff that's really stuck with you. What are one or two of those pieces of advice that have actually managed to help you get through things like the GFC or COVID, and actually come out the other side swinging and even stronger?

Ephram: [00:32:18] Yeah, great question. I have been very fortunate to sort of, I guess, not surround myself with peers, but obviously it's cost me money. I've paid for the services that along the way, but absolutely, Non-Executive Directors, Board Advisors, Business Coaches. I've just reconnected with one of my very first business coaches, a guy called Casey Gollan, absolute machine. Anyone who's looking for a business coach between probably 2 to 10 mil mark is worth wonders. He did a lot of work with the guys over at… that name will come to me. But yeah, he is a great guy. I've done a lot of work with a guy called Mike Wamsley, Non-Executive Director. Sorry, Big Commerce was a company that Casey did a lot of work with, help those guys launch that. And Greg Savage now, basically I've done one-on-one with Greg Savage again, arguably the godfather and recruitment, and then a number of other players as well. I think when the chips are down or when the confidence is down, it's always kind of going back to the drawing board and going back to basics. And I don't think you can go too wrong by doing that. You know, again, recruitment is not difficult. A lot of people do make it a lot harder than what needs to be and they over-complicate things. But I think it's just going back to that again, do the right thing, you know, reputation is key, and it's such an incestuous industry that all it takes is that one remark, that one comment, that one place that potentially your whole careers on the internet, so…

Sean: [00:33:52] During this journey, you will have made some mistakes, no doubt. I can't imagine that it was a straight line that everything was roses, all the way up. I don't think I've ever met an entrepreneur where that's been the case. What's been one of your biggest mistakes and what have you learned from that?

Ephram: [00:34:08] Yeah, probably my biggest mistake was with the Kona & co Group. During lockdown trying to scale a business at the rate that I was trying to scale the business and it just wasn't sustainable, without the individuals involved, the business has got a phenomenal foundation. But for me personally, I was just trying to grow the business so quickly, and then obviously the COVID kind of came around. So for me, again, it's all about ethics. It’s about doing the right thing. You know, I had a guy working with me at Kona, and also a resourcer. So, Claire was my first hire then Andy came on board. And again, I just wish I could have spent more time with those two individuals specifically to have actually done the right thing in regards to training development, mentoring. And for me. A big believer in leaving a legacy. I don't know of any other recruitment entrepreneur who's founded, scaled and exited as many businesses that I have that are all still operating, there's no distressed sales, it was literally all strategic, it was all done…don't get me wrong, there was certain businesses that are sold because of certain outside influences or my personal circumstances obviously at that time. But ultimately again, it's all about doing the right thing by your employees because you're only as good as your team and again, a cliche I know, but it's so true when it comes to recruitment because ultimately they are your ambassadors. They're the face of the business and the eyes and ears of the business, and that would certainly be one of the, I guess not necessarily regrets, but certainly where I think I could have done better, as an owner, as a manager, but then you look at all the circumstances, obviously surrounded that you look at COVID. Again, I was based in Melbourne, we physically couldn’t get out of our houses. We're in five-kilometre radius. So, I can come up with a number of antidotes about that. I guess being not scaling the business quick enough. Again, so from one extreme to another. We had Design and Construct. I had the opportunity to scale that on multiple occasions. And again, what I mentioned early about doing London before Perth, the method in the madness there it's like, well, it surely it would have been better to get Perth down pat first, but again, it's been a great experience and you don't know what you don't know. It gets very lonely at the top, we all know that, but “one shareholder, one director” has predominantly been the way that I've operated all the way through, and then obviously releasing equity over time. But yeah, that would certainly be I guess one of the things.

Sean: [00:36:49] No, I really appreciate you sharing that. I'm interested to know whether there's been … we of course all end up reading lots of books and getting exposed to different frameworks or methodologies or philosophies that have helped us. And so, given the audience of this podcast is primarily those Founders, first time Founders, haven't gone past probably 10 million, they're still striving to scale. Not necessarily what's a book or a tool or a framework that's inspired you, but what's one that you've actually sort of really taken and implemented. And as a result of that implementation really seen a change in the growth trajectory or the ability to scale your business?

Ephram: [00:37:41] Yeah. Again, I guess this kind of coincides with the last question, in recruitment, there's so many business owners that just don't recruit. And I've been one of those, I've kind of taken the foot off the gas and focusing, working on the business and working in the business and everyone will give you their 10 cents as to which way is the best way to do it. And I think ultimately again, it's going to be industry specific, but for me personally, being the face of the business, being on the phone, being the one that is not shy to put up a post or put up a job ad 10-11 o'clock at night and really leading from the front. I think once I really made that shift again with quite a few of the businesses was to be more hands-on, more involved, bringing in the deals, rainmaking, because that's why we got into it. That's why I got into it in the first place. I think it's so easy to lose sight of that because you get carried away, you get suppliers inviting you out, you get basically people wanting to come and meet with you for interviews that you wouldn't normally interview, but it's kind of a bit of a catch 22 because obviously they want the knowledge and the experience. You obviously volunteer your time. But then again, I think it's just, there's distractions of growing. Just focus on doing what you do best, and leave everyone else to just kind of get on with all that crap, basically. I mean, again, it's so easy for one to kind of take the foot off the gas, get a little bit side-tracked with something else. I’ve had three online businesses that I founded during that time as well. You know, basically I’ve had Tea detox business about a coffee body scrub product, pink Himalayan rock salt, and I'm now involved in a cosmetic business. You know, we’re stocked in over 300 salons. So, for me, It's about not getting carried away. I love business. I love entrepreneurship, but at the same time, I feel very privileged and very honoured to have had the opportunities that I've had to work with, the individuals that I've had. And for me now, it's about collating all that information and all that experience, all that knowledge, the wins the losses, the good times, the bad times, and just making sure that we're doing things right every time.

Sean: [00:39:54] I think one of the things that you said that I think incredibly helpful for you because I have this conversation regularly with clients of mine, you came with that from an approach of fundamentally strength, right? And to do what you're strong at, don't let up. But also, don't take your eye off the ball. And there's two things I think that are instructive about that. One is, where do you get your energy from? What are the activities that actually give you energy in the business? Because when you're the Founder, you need to retain your energy. And if you all of a sudden found yourself… you were doing stuff you love, the businesses is growing, you're now doing actually stuff that you can't stand, that you hate it and it's draining from you. You're giving everybody else all of that energy. You can't not give them that energy. If you don't find a way to actually still do some of the things that really give you juice, that's going to be an issue in the business in the medium term, because you know, you can always find other people that can do those things that you don't love. And secondly, one of the things that I think sometimes as businesses scale, that really gets lost is, talking to customers.  And if the people at the top, no matter what the size of the business, if the leadership team are not all talking to customers on a regular basis, including the CEO, you're going to end up putting in place a lot of strategies that you think are going to work, or that you think might that the customers might want. But actually, the people who are making those decisions really need to be talking to the customer on an absolutely consistent basis. Otherwise, you lose touch also with the tone and the pulse of the market and what customers want, what their pain and problems are. And so, I think you've really in your business, that's part and parcel of that conversation, but it's also, you leveraging your strengths.

Ephram: [00:41:27] Yeah absolutely. So again, just with that, with your strengths, I mean, for me, it was… like I said, I'm dyslexic. So for me, that kind of admin function is that I'm good at it, but is it by time better off spent on something else. So, again, virtual assistants, I'm still using two virtual assistants that have been employed with me now for going on 11 years… even when I don't have work for them, I'll find work for them to do, but for me it's to know that I've got that kind of solid base of admin support as and when I need it. You know? So again, automation, just automate as much as possible. Collar Group is invested, we're literally just getting off the ground now, but we've already signed and obviously you mentioned to yourself, several multimillion dollar contracts, And it's all based on the foundation of the CRM. So our CRM, we have then 8 marketplace partners or 8 other suppliers who will plug into the CRM, which will all make the process and streamline the candidate experience. So again, candidate centric approach, the candidate experience, their onboarding process with us is… well, I'm going to be biased, but I think is probably one of the best in the industry. The payroll function, the time sheet management, again, is all basically done with an amazing piece of tech stack and, you know, the references, the reformatting of resumes, again, the compliance of tickets or checking the tickets licenses, Vivo checks, again, brought all that into literally click of a button. So, there's no reason for us to leave our computer. I mean, there's always, we've got a phone, we can speak to any candidates. We can meet them face to face, but that kind of compliance process, I'm excited to announce this is an industry-first mate. I've literally just come off the phone with one of my other suppliers and one of my other partners, we're actually going to be the first recruitment agency in Australia that's actually going to be offering daily pay. You know one of the things that business that I've just been involved in, one of the biggest frustrations was candidates getting paid and waiting a week, sometimes two weeks to get time sheets approved and through no fault of their own, physically not being able to get paid on time. So again, looking at things, how can we add value to the industry? How can we support our candidates with that? Picking up clients is easy. Like, you know, as long as you're ethical and you know, and you never over promise and under deliver, clients will listen to what you've got to say.

You've got to obviously show them, the proof is in the pudding and deliver on what you say you're going to, but, you know…so for us, we're really focusing on that kind of candidate experience and how can we build up our own loyal candidate base in recruitment, it’s very transactional. You'll pick up a role today,

you might speak to a candidate today, but our client will call back tomorrow or in a week's time with the same role. It's like; well, let's go back to all the candidates. Again, it seems like it should be very straightforward, businesses should be doing it, but you just don't in recruitment. So again, automation, I've got a call this afternoon at four o'clock where chatbots… which aren't anything new, but you know, again, how can we help the candidate experience by coming onto the website? We'll be launching in the next 10 days. And again, the website has been all designed about that experience. Now, how can we make it easy for them? So, it'll be the only basically, recruitment agency in Australia offering daily pay, I think it's amazing, honestly, that I'm really excited about it, not just for my candidates and employees of the business, but also for the industry as a whole. You know, like it's trying to get away with that talent.

Sean: [00:45:10] Yeah, a new bar. And also, I think something sometimes what is lost in the context of automation is and you know, where people can sometimes feel a bit threatened about the fact that all this automation going on. So, the whole point from my perspective of leveraging, good quality automation tools, whether that's just workflow automation or it's kind of AI enabled or whatever. The whole point is actually it should be freeing you up to be more human. It should be freeing you up to have richer, deeper, more connected experience with other people because you're not spending your time doing a whole bunch of stuff that actually is far better done by a machine.

Ephram: [00:45:44] Yeah. but that's exactly it, mate, because when I talk about the automation and I talk about the CRM and all the marketplace partners, there's no interaction with the candidate in any of that, as in it’s literally to help the candidate onboard themselves as streamlined and as easy as possible without… I don't know if you've ever applied for a job to a recruiting agency and gone down the kind of; okay, great. So, congratulations, you're starting the position tomorrow, here is 20 pages of documents, policies, procedures that you need to read through to sign, and gone are the day. I know there are still companies that may be still using faxes or the equivalent, but yes, you have to give that information to candidates. And obviously today it's vital that they read through it all, but let's lighten the load and let's basically make the experience that much more enjoyable. Interesting stat that, out of every 100 people that you apply, basically in my experience over the last 18 months, for every 100 people that actually physically apply. So, you've onboarded, you've sent them the required documentation. They've started the process of uploading their tickets licenses, basically vivo checks, whatever the case may be. Out of those hundred, you're probably only placing close to about 20% if you're looking. So, the other 80 candidates have to go through all that rigmarole of their registering the details, working with your technology, if you have technology, so even that experience that they leave, if they don't get the job for whatever reason, and not everybody's going to get the job. You know, there's potentially so much damage from a PR point of view that has been done and absolutely mate. So again, just looking at things differently, how can we make the process so much easier? I hate to say but more enjoyable, that's ultimately what we're trying to do.

Sean: [00:47:20] Yeah. Every touch point is a brand experience. To be frank, I think people's expectations have gone up a lot because we're constantly getting exposed to more efficient, more customised, much more personalised, easier mobile-first experiences and when you find a business that's still running stuff where they're going, I can send you this 12 page document you need to print it off, and you just do it by hand, you decide, you just go… I'll just find someone else because I just can't even get my head around doing it anymore. So, that's pretty exciting. Look, I've got two questions left for you given the time that we've got today, the first one is, what is life going to look like for you in three years’ time? Because you've got…this has been a pretty significant run of super-fast pace, constant scaling, next business, next business, next business. And then you're entering a different sort of stage of life and you've also started a new business.  In three years’ time, what do you think this is all going to look like for you?

Ephram: [00:48:37] Okay. A combination of all the other 11 businesses, is what I can say hand on heart, mate. One of my biggest regrets in recruitment was I never joined a Hays, I never joined a Michael Page or Robert Walters is arguably the best companies in recruitment and their training that they offer their juniors or their associates is phenomenal, it's world-class. So, for me, it was all about not necessarily not feeling good enough, but always feeling like I have something to prove. And for me personally, now kind of looking back and going, okay, great. If I can just take 10% out of those 11 businesses, whether that’s some experience, skillset, whether that's industry specialisation, how to recruit or whatever, then we're going to have a very successful business with Collar Group and the feedback that I've had, basically the industry from my peers from, obviously other networks is, it's really exciting. And the opportunity that is in front of us now is to grow one of the most successful. I'm not going to say largest because I'm kind of over that grown a large business and obviously …revenues are obviously vanity, profit is sanity right? So, I'm all about profitability. I want to reinvest back in, we’re looking at some training facilities at the moment over here in Perth where we’re looking at starting a training part of the business, you know, so for apprenticeship, what are they giving back. And I obviously met through the YPO - Young Presidents Organisation, again, just getting more involved in that. So for me, it's about having a quality of work life growing something great. And leaving that legacy, that's probably the easiest way for me to say…

Sean: [00:50:11] Fabulous. Last question for you. And this is a segment that I asked each Founder who’ve scaled business, the segments called ‘Above All Else’. So, I want you to imagine now go out much further. Imagine you're now in your yearning years, you've achieved all you want to do, you've started as many businesses you've already wanted, I don't know, you’ve already done 10 or something… so, let's assume that's probably 30, by the time you're done, you're tired. But you've achieved all the things that you've wanted. And you get a call from the CEO of the world's largest global community of first-time Founders. There's tens of millions of them around the world and they are hungry. And she gives you a once in a lifetime opportunity to share your wisdom with them. And she asks you to complete this sentence, which is… above all else, the three things that you have to get right as a Founder if you want to scale are…? What would be your three Above All Else's? the three things you must get right as a Founder, if you want to scale?

Ephram: [00:51:18] Yeah, most important would be, passion. And when I say … everybody from the owner all the way down, has to be passionate about what you do, especially when it comes to recruitment. If you don't have that passion, that culture, that drive, then ultimately what's the point in being in your business.

You're just going to become another agency that's just going to become a job filler. And I guess the other point on that would be, to have fun. You've got to enjoy what it is you do. You know, we spend too much of our time at work for us not to be happy. Why not create a work environment where everyone actually enjoys coming to work. Cliché I know, and it's going to be difficult to kind of manage that. And I guess the next thing would be…love what you do. Again, it just comes back to passion. And I think, if you were to have interviewed me 17 years ago, I’d still be the same bubbly jovial, enthusiastic, passionate recruiter as I am today, I don't think anything's changed. It might have a few more grey hairs and a different kind of style haircut. But then, apart from that passion, hunger, drive, love what you do is. Ultimately, for me, again, you could ask that question and get so many different answers. Regardless, I think what it always come back to is why are they in business, or why did they go into business for themselves in the first place?

Sean: [00:52:30] 100%. And it's not only that, in that it’s fulfilling an energy in you, but it's also something that's giving, you're creating a space where you'll be able to give that to other people.

Ephram: [00:52:33] It's a springboard honestly, it's like the best foundation springboard to attract the similar type of individuals, whether it's entrepreneurs, whether that's employees, or whatever the case may be. I think that's what creates that kind of culture and that type of buzz around myself.

Sean: [00:52:36] I love it. Thank you, mate, thank you for sharing that wisdom. I'd really like to acknowledge you. The thing that I love about the way that you've built these businesses is that it feels like each time you've taken, you've really actually spent time thinking about “what do I have to take from that experience to make sure I build it into the next one”. So, it's almost like a scaffolding, each business has become better than the last, better built than the last with more thought, with more wisdom, with more experience applied, but you still retained all of that energy to continue to do it and actually probably increase the amount of energy. So, rather than getting burned out as many people would have having gone through this sort of serial entrepreneurship. It seems like it gives you more energy each time because you're getting ... it's almost like it's getting easier because you're gathering all that experience. And rather than going okay, that was that experience, let's put it to the side. You're going “that was a great experience, if I scaffold that on top of everything else I've learned, the next one's actually easier, more enjoyable.”

Ephram: [00:52:37] 100%, because if you can kind of take any of that experience, and help any candidates along the way, or help your clients all the way. It's good business. It's not rocket science. It is good business. They'll keep coming back for years and years. And I think again, that's testament to where we are today.

Sean: [00:54:08] 100%.  Thank you so much Ephram, I really appreciate you giving us your time today. How can people get in touch or follow what you're doing?

Ephram: [00:54:48] Yeah, by all means, obviously, people are keen to reach out and I'm always happy to answer any questions or queries or take time out of my day to speak to other like-minded entrepreneurs. And the easiest way is to look me up at LinkedIn. So, Ephram Stephenson. There's only a couple of results on LinkedIn. But yeah, by all means, LinkedIn is probably the best way for anyone to reach out to me.

Sean: [00:54:53] Beautiful. Thank you. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed the show today. Huge thanks to Ephram Stephenson. I really appreciate your wisdom and your time and I think there's been some incredible gold there for our audience. Couple of things before you go folks. If you got value from today and you loved what Ephram had to say, we'd really appreciate you leaving a review on Apple podcasts. It of course helps the algorithms give access to this to other people. But it also really gives our team a massive boost. And like Ephram, we have a numerous people working on this in the background. So, it really gives them a lot of joy. If you'd like to know when new episodes are going to drop, or you'd like to be notified when there's free tools and resources, just jump on the website – www.ScaleUpspodcast.com.You can register your email there. Or you can leave us a question that myself or a future guests will happily answer about scaling up in your own business. Or if you prefer to use the socials, you can find us on all social platforms on @scaleupspodcast. But remember, before you go, there is actually only one thing that can absolutely guarantee that you're not going to be able to scale and that is to give up. When it gets hard, it's easy to quit, then there's so many times that it's going to happen where you're going to be going… oh, maybe this is the time (to get out) but that's exactly the time that you need to stay unshakable in your faith that you're going to succeed, but flexible in your approach to make sure that you get there. You've been listening to the ScaleUps Podcast. I'm Sean Steele. I look forward to speaking with you again next week. Thanks so much, Ephram.

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