Podcast Transcript

Sean: [00:00:00] G’day everyone, and welcome to the ScaleUps Podcast where we help first time Founders learn the secrets of scaling so they can fulfill the potential of their businesses, make bigger decisions with more confidence and maximise the value they can create in the world. I am your host, Sean Steele, and I'm joined today by Elyse Stoltz Dickerson - Founder of Eosera, a Biotech Business that you founded back in 2015. It feels like it was like yesterday, at least probably feels like a lot longer to you. Is that right?

Elyse: [00:00:37] No, it does feel like yesterday. 

Sean: [00:00:40] Six and a half years. Wow. And you've been really niching down on innovating to address unmet needs in the over-the-counter healthcare space. So, ear care products and nasal care products. I'm going to ask you to give us a bit of an overview about that. This has been a fascinating journey you've been on, and it feels like your business has been getting a lot of attention and yourself as well. Just to give the audience a bit of context, number 1 in Fort Worth and number 25 in Texas on Inc Magazine's 2021 list, Most inspiring leader by Dallas Business Journal, Finalist in the innovation awards, Top 400 Most Influential People, Healthcare Innovator for 2020, and you are a repeating contributor to Forbes. And I'm just wondering whether you sleep at some point on this on this journey? 

Elyse: [00:01:31] I actually don't know who that person is that you just listed all those things about because I don't know how it gets done. 

Sean: [00:01:37] It's amazing. Well, look maybe you could kick us off by just telling us a bit about the business, but in particular, maybe to think about what problems are you solving for who and how? Who is the customer, what's the problem you're trying to solve?

Elyse: [00:01:50] Absolutely. So, my co-Founder and I started the business after spending about 15 years in a big pharmaceutical company. One thing we learned, we thought that big companies do really well is they go out and talk to the marketplace. So, we spent the first three months just talking to doctors, trying to understand what were some unmet healthcare needs that potentially as a small company we could address. And the first one that rose to the top, and we talked to pediatricians, geriatricians, general practitioners, really anyone that would take time with us, and earwax impaction was a condition that affected millions and millions of people, they were going to their doctors to have earwax removed, which was just mind boggling to me because there was nothing effective over the counter. So, that's where we started, and we spent the first nine months in the lab with our own money coming out of our savings accounts and reading every piece of literature on earwax that we could find, reading patents and formulating, we went through over 200 formulations and finally came out with something that was dissolving wax on a regular consistent basis because one thing you probably don't know is that everyone's wax is a little bit different. So, depending on your diet and your ethnicity, and just your daily activities, you might have a very wet wax, or you might have a really dry or hard wax. And we needed a product that would address all different types of wax.

So, we actually harvested human wax from doctors. They would send it to our lab and we would figure out how to break it down, and that's how we got our start. I mean, it was really just trial and error. 

Sean: [00:03:49] That’s like … quite a package to receive in the mail. It's like… oh, look at this thing who wants to open this one.!

Elyse: [00:03:56] I gave that privilege to my business partner, Joe Griffin, and he was such a champ. 

Sean: [00:04:00] And when you say we, is that who you refer to? 

Elyse: [00:04:03] Exactly, yeah.

Sean: [00:04:06] All right. Wow, that's so interesting. And it's one of those things that people probably don't give a lot of thought to, but there is no doubt all of these little unmet needs because you know we always focused on big things, like the big diseases and the stuff that's really in your face and really traumatic. But there's all these things that are actually incredibly inconvenient or actually quite problematic, but we just normalise that there's nothing that you can do about it or you are bouncing between homemade remedies. I assume there's probably a lot of people defaulting to ear candling, whether that works or isn't, you know you're setting your ears on fire, always an interesting thing to do in the house, we've tried that with our kids over time. I'm not sure that was super effective. 

Elyse: [00:04:45] It’s not recommended. 

Sean: [00:04:46] No, I wouldn't have thought it was, I was sitting there going… I didn't think this was a safe thing for me to do, I'm out. If you want to tackle this one, you go for it.

Elyse: [00:04:54] Yeah. I think you bring up a really good point. Big pharmaceutical companies, they are looking for that next billion dollar idea, but there are so many what I'd call hundred million to 500 million ideas out there that small companies can address, because the big ones aren't going to spend the time researching it. It's just not big enough. 

Sean: [00:05:18] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So, for those, who've got an eye for finding the gap and really… how did you evaluate that the gap was big enough? So obviously you're getting feedback from doctors like; hi, this is a problem. You're doing some samples… how did you go… okay, this is actually a market that's big enough for us. How did you figure that out?

Elyse: [00:05:34] So a couple different ways. So, in part of my prior life, one product in my portfolio was an anti-infective for the ear. It had been repurposed for the eye. And so, through some of those years, working on those brands, I was able to talk to ENTs and understand common conditions. And then secondarily, I looked at things like Nielsen data, looked at the retail shelf, just went out and kind of did my own sleuthing. And what we found is that no new innovation had been brought to the category and over 50 years. 

Sean: [00:06:12] Wow. So, can you give us a sense of… you know, the businesses only six and a half years old… can you give us a sense of how the business has been scaling its impact from a numbers or sort of metrics perspective. How do you talk about the scale and the impact in terms of metrics?

Elyse: [00:06:28] Yeah, sure. So, we don't give out our revenue numbers, but we've doubled our revenue year over year since we started. And we're in over 13,000 stores in the United States, we have a big Amazon business, we're starting to branch into Amazon Canada, and we now …

Sean: [00:06:49] Amazon, you're selling those products direct to the consumer, as well as selling through the distribution channel of the pharmacies? 

Elyse: [00:06:58] Absolutely. And we started with one product and in six years now we over have over 10 products in ear care. So, we've scaled in many different directions, tried to stay really focused on ear care and really own the market there. 

Sean: [00:07:14] Do the retailers have an issue with you going direct on Amazon or is that current state of play for everyone, everyone's like, oh yeah, we're never going to lock these guys down to just distribute through us so we just have to accept we’re competing…

Elyse: [00:07:29] They accept it, but they do request that you keep pricing the same or within a dollar or two in our ballpark wherever on the 20 US dollars to 30 US dollars per unit, and I think that's a reasonable request. 

Sean: [00:07:46] Does it go the other way though? So, what if they want to do a super special, do you get that protection on your side? 

Elyse: [00:07:52] We do.

Sean: [00:07:54] All right, cool. So, they've got to get approval from you to drop it. Okay.

Elyse: [00:07:56] Well, the US retailers make us pay for those markdowns. So, they actually have to get approval from us, and we can say… no, we'll give you a dollar or two mark-down, but we're not going five or more dollars. 

Sean: [00:08:07] Wow. So, when you think about differentiation, you know this was clearly a space that you saw was… were there other products that were just ineffective or were there no direct products that were actually doing the job at all?

Elyse: [00:08:25] So, there is one product that literally owns the market. It was developed in the 1960s. It's called Deep Rocks. It's really around the world, and it was designed to soften wax over time. It's on every retail shelf. And when I talked to doctors, they would say; well, we recommend the product, we know it doesn't work, but we have nothing else to recommend. 

Sean: [00:08:51] No alternative. Yeah.

Elyse: [00:08:52] Right. But other than that, there was just nobody paying attention. 

Sean: [00:09:00] I love that. Those are exciting, right? When you're going through that validation process and go hang on a second, there's a need here, the market opportunity. There's a bit of white space and I'm going to go in all in on this thing because I think we can make ground. But it takes a lot of courage,

because you don't know for sure. And I know that when we were talking a bit offline about some of those key moments and those key decisions that changed the dial on growth or were actually exceptionally challenging… one of the things that you mentioned to me was the first big account that you landed. Can you share a bit of that story for our listeners?

Elyse: [00:09:33] Absolutely. So, I'm smiling as you ask the question, because it's so unpredictable when you start a business, and you're exactly right. Like you think you're tapping into something, but it's sort of a wing and a prayer that you're bringing a product to market. And so, I got a 10-minute meeting scheduled with the buyer from CVS, which is a national pharmacy chain, 10-minutes. And literally, you know, they were going to cut me off and walk me out of the room. So, I had … you can imagine practice this pitch, and it was a 7-minute pitch… 

Sean: [00:10:11] How many days or weeks or hours did you have before that meeting was going to happen to get the practicing? 

Elyse: [00:10:19] About 30 days. 

Sean: [00:10:20] Okay. Right. So, 30 days of training to get down to a 7-minute pitch. I love it.

Elyse: [00:10:25] I mean, I knew it like cold, right? I was saying it in the shower, in the mirror, like everywhere I went, I was repeating my pitch. And at the end of the 7-minutes, I looked at him and I said, I would love for you to try it in handful of stores, maybe 500 to 2000 stores and let's test it and see how it does. And he looked at me and he said… Nope, I love it. We're taking it in all 8,000 stores. And I need it in three months. 

Sean: [00:10:57] Wow.

Elyse: [00:10:57] So it was a moment of sheer joy and sheer panic, because we didn't have a contract manufacturer yet. We didn't have final packaging. We kind of knew how to make it, but not really. It was a lesson and go figure it out. 

Sean: [00:11:16] How much inventory was they expecting? So, what does that first order look like? I want this in 8,000 stores. What does that mean for how much you've actually got to produce? 

Elyse: [00:11:24] Like 40,000 units for that first shipment. 

Sean: [00:11:27] Okay. 

Elyse: [00:11:28] Which is a lot. And we have no money. So, I mean, there's a whole bunch of things you've got to go figure out really quickly to make it happen, and we did.

Sean: [00:11:40] And so, when you reflect back on what you actually prioritise, because actually that's the test, right? It's all right, you've done the sell, the customer loves it, there's an opportunity here, but then you go… what do we have to prioritise first? Because actually if we get these things in the wrong order, or we do the wrong things in 30 days, we could have burned a whole bunch of time. And actually, we should have went into to do that first and it could be really big problem. How did you think about your first two or three steps?

Elyse: [00:12:04] So we did seek guidance from some of our key advisors, we made some quick phone calls, told them what we were thinking, because you are exactly right. Like you have such a limited window and you don't want to screw it up. And so, I'm a big fan of just running past your plan with somebody that's been there, done that, or can see the bigger picture because your mind gets foggy, you got so many things racing. So, the first thing we did was figure out we had interviewed contract manufacturers, but the key was locking down that manufacturer and getting in their schedule, because manufacturers, they'll tell you, well, we need eight weeks just to put you in the schedule. And so, you know we've got three months total. That means we got to ship it to their distribution centres within that or right at the end of that three months. So, number one, lock down the contract manufacturer. So, we got on a plane. We flew from Texas to Florida. Did a tour of the manufacturing facility and quickly moved there. And then secondly, we had to line up…They helped us with the bottle and cap and that kind of thing, but we needed to figure out the final artwork for the cartons that were going to be on shelf, because that's a really big call to action. I mean, that's really your marketing banner when you first launch. So making sure we had that right, and then making sure we had some money in the bank to fund this. 

Sean: [00:13:36] To fund it. Yeah.

Elyse: [00:13:37] Because the other thing, I think a lot of people don't realise. I don't know if it's the same around the world, but in the US, big retailers hold your money when you're a new vendor. And so, when I say they hold your money, you ship them product and you ship them product for six months and they don't pay you. So, with CVS, we went over 180 days with no payments. And you can imagine like your sales are through the roof, but you got no cash. So, there's a lot of things to think through in terms of cashflow, just so you can keep it going. 

Sean: [00:14:16] Well, how did you think about the funding given that it was going to be a really key priority? I mean, Founders in the services industries, their mind boggles about the working capital profile of a business that's developing products like these. Because they're used to getting generally, at least some money up front to fund at least some of the delivery and then maybe some towards the end or maybe all of it upfront, but this is the opposite. How did you think about doing the funding?

Elyse: [00:14:42] Few things. So, we went to some banks and asked for lines of credit and they said, no… which even though as individuals we could have guaranteed them, they didn't want to loan 500,000 to a company they don't know anything about. So, we ended up raising capital. We raised 1.2 million from angel investors, and we raised it as convertible debt, because we weren't in a place where we felt like we could value the company, we were so new. And so again… 

Sean: [00:15:19] Can you just for those Founders who don't know what convertible debt looks like, how does it play out, what is that?

Elyse: [00:15:25] Yeah. I learned on the fly, I went to some advisors that were in the venture and private equity world and ask them what are some creative ways that I could finance this where I don't have to spend a lot of money up front, because you know if you're selling shares, there's a lot of legwork just with lawyers you have to do, that costs a lot of money. So, the convertible debt, you essentially have a term sheet and you’re taking a loan from individuals when you're raising it from angel investors, with the caveat that it will convert into equity at a certain point in time. And so, ours was I think, a two-year conversion and we put a cap on what the ceiling is for the value of the company. So, we're not going to go out and say, we're a $20 million company. We had to give them something that was reasonable or they could have the option to get paid back with interest. Because we were successful in that two-year period, everybody wanted to convert to equity, but I think if we had not been successful, we would have had investors saying… okay, pay me back and give me my interest.

Sean: [00:16:42] I think it's such an interesting part of a business that's trying to fund growth. You know, you've got customer opportunity. It's like.. hey, this thing's going to work, but we need cash. How much of the company did you have, if you’re willing to share, did you have to give up as a result of having to finance that way?

Elyse: [00:16:58] We were really fortunate. We did not give up much. And part of the rationale for doing the conversion, the debt conversion was that we were able to hold on to a lot more of the company. So, my co-Founder and I still own over 70% of the company.  

Sean: [00:17:17] Awesome. That's fabulous. Thanks for sharing that. And I'm interested in your sort of hindsight reflections on some of the learnings, because I hear so many out of just that one story. So, starting with, being in front of someone for 7-minutes, having to get this picture right and then having to run… like what did you learn through that process?

Elyse: [00:17:38] Well, I learned a lot about myself that, I can do hard things. You know, sometimes we get overwhelmed if we stop and think too long, but if we just say… all right, you know what, they want the product we're going to get it to them. I don't know how we're going to do it, but we're going to get it to them.

And just having that ‘can-do’ mindset because there were hurdles and roadblocks at every turning point... So a perfect example, our product has a rinsing bulb in it. So, like a squeeze bulb, we called them a snot sucker for our babies, but you use it to squeeze water into the ear canal to rinse it after you use our product. We ordered them through this contract manufacturer from China and they arrived with a sticky film all over them. And so, we had ordered a hundred thousand bulbs, and they all essentially were unusable. And something like that, I kid you not, at least once a week, something like that would happen. So having the can-do attitude and positive mindset is key to entrepreneurship. 

Sean: [00:18:53] That is… Elyse, can I start there? The thing that I say at the end, and I will say it again at the end of this episode, the one thing that guarantees that you will absolutely never scale is giving up. Right? And you have to balance this really difficult dichotomy as a Founder, which is unshakeable faith and conviction that you are going to get to your goals. And at the same time, an incredible amount of flexibility and willingness to be wrong, and just a constant willingness to adapt and change and switch behaviours and keep going, knowing that, and you can't control it. You have to have 100 percent certainty and 100 percent flexibility almost. It's a really difficult dichotomy. Is that what you found?

Elyse: [00:19:32] It's exactly what I found. And nobody really can tell you until you are experiencing it. But the key is not only for yourself as an entrepreneur, but building a team around you that can thrive in that environment. Because if you've got people that you know, are paralysed, when something goes wrong, they're not going to help you, they're going to hurt. And so, you need to hire people that like chaos, it’s sort of organised chaos, it’s what entrepreneurship is, but it's fun. 

Sean: [00:20:06] Well, that's challenging in a start-up environment, right? Because you often want… you see some people with incredible talent who've worked in big companies and so on, but often they don't have the character, or I don't know what the right language is, but they're not ready for the changing of priorities every 35 minutes, because something needs to tackle, like they’re so used to having control and structure and formula and framework. And you're like, no, no, that doesn't exist here. You just have to figure it out really fast, and not everyone succeeds in that environment.

Elyse: [00:20:37] That's so true. And we made some big mistakes in hiring at first. Hiring people that we had worked with, or that had come from big companies. On top of what you just said, there's also a… when you're in a big company, you have a very narrow job description. When you're in a start-up environment, you do everything including take out the trash. I mean, I take out the trash, you know. And so, it is a shift in mindset that my job is not an inch thick. It's a mile wide. 

Sean: [00:21:16] Yeah, that's very true. And you know, one of the things I liked about what you said in that story that not everyone may have heard, is that one of the first things that you did was actually check out your plan and the challenge and the opportunity with people that you really trusted, but also who'd been there before. Actually the fact that you had them available to go to is a really important lesson I think for many people, because you have to build that… you have to be able to tap into that, like that day, like within a couple of hours, or that evening or the next day, like not in 30-days after I've thought about it and had to research the internet to find out. You need to build those relationships so that you can tap into them quickly because that helps you validate your thinking or get it challenged or move you forward and get you out of any stuck or indecision moments.

Elyse: [00:22:04] Yeah. I'm a big fan of giving of yourself freely because you never know when you're going to need those people in your life. And I will tell you, we had people come out of the woodwork, people from my childhood, people from previous employers… all different stages of life, come in to help us, especially in those early days. And it's just because I really believe, my business partner and I have a similar philosophy that we just always treat people really well, and we give freely of our knowledge and ourselves and it's come back a hundred fold. 

Sean: [00:22:42] Yeah. I think that's a theme that really plays out with successful Founders, full stop, because you can never do it on your own. You know, your team who might be working with you and follow you, but your team absolutely has to include peers, and people who've been there before and who are more experienced. And if you haven't built that goodwill, it's not going to come when you need it. Can I ask that, you mentioned also a false start…. so as we shift out of that story.. you mentioned a sort of false start with a major retailer. Can you share that story with our audience?

Elyse: [00:23:11] Yes. The largest retailer in the United States. I'll try not to say their name because we would like to do business with them in the future. So, when you're in the retail business, every purchase order is your contract with a retailer. So, you know, every time CVS sends me some… a purchase order, I fill it then within 10 days. So when you're trying to sell into a new retailer, you meet with the buyer, you talk about your products and then you sort of have to take on faith when they say; I'm going to take your product, because they don't have the power to write out a long contract. Especially with a small little vendor like us, they're not going to take the time. So, largest retailer in United States said; yes, we're taking your products. And so, unlike a big, Johnson and Johnson or, you know, a huge company like that, we needed a couple months to make the kind of volume that they were going to need for the initial shipment. So, we hired new people, started scaling up manufacturing, trusting that the purchase orders were coming, ordered components from China, whole nine yards. And two weeks before the purchase orders were supposed to hit, we were confirming the ship date with the buyer and the buyer said; oh my gosh, I got you confused with another vendor. I'm actually not taking your products. 

Sean: [00:24:45] Wow. Did your heart stop for like several seconds?

Elyse: [00:24:48] Yeah. So, it actually came through my broker, which was probably really good. And my broker said, the buyer wants to talk to you. And I said, I can't, so give me a few days. And mainly, I mean, I was… obviously, yes, my heart stopped. I had hired all these people. I was going to now have to let them go. We had over a hundred thousand units built for this retailer. What was I going to do with those, you know, some had dating on it, which would expire. And so, I needed to get my ducks in a row to understand what the true fallout was, and also compose myself. Because long-term relationships matter, and I knew long-term I needed a good relationship with this retailer, so I couldn't explode and be a jerk. And that's not normally my style anyway, but still, you know, needed to check myself. And so, a week later I got on the call. And I was really transparent with that buyer. I do feel like they need to know the human side of mistakes. And I do believe it was just a human mistake, but shared with her that we were going to have to lay off these people and what it did to us as a small business. So, lesson learned, you know, you take your chances, but I still wouldn't do it any other way. I still would have built the inventory because 9 times out of 10, what the buyer tells you is correct. And they are taking those units. 

Sean: [00:26:16] Right. Yep. So, in terms of any… are there any lessons there that you think are instructive for Founders, if you're going to give somebody advice as a result of going through that experience, what would you say?

Elyse: [00:26:31] You know, I mean, advisors have told me they're like, you should have gotten something in writing. And we had emails, you know, saying they're taking our products. So, I think just knowing that it can happen, and again, sort of having cashflow, you know having money in the bank so that when you hit these roadblocks, it doesn't put you out of business. And so we worked through the inventory. We figured that out how to distribute it, and we did have to lay off people, which is never ideal, but I had to for the success of the business. 

Sean: [00:27:05] Yep. Wow. It's such a difficult process, but to your point, if 9 times out of 10, that thing plays out in the right way. The question is, when you're a Founder and you sub 10 million, you're thinking; well, I can't plan for all of them. You couldn't possibly plan for that. You didn't expect it to happen. And that's just the way the industry works. And so, you're either not in the game or you're in the game and you accept the risk. What we can plan for of course is,  things like, do we have a line of credit available? Do we have an overdraft?

Do we have some way of accessing finance? If everything hits the fan, all of a sudden, how long are we going to last on our cash burn rate before we run out of money, because that's fundamentally what's going to kill the business and we are going to take some hits, they're all going to be problems. And so yeah, the question is how well can we sell through them rather than how can we avoid them entirely, because that's not reality.

Elyse: [00:27:53] Absolutely. And I would say early in the business, we turned down some retail accounts. So some other very large drug stores - drug chains, because we did not feel like we could provide the product to all the retailers at the same time. And so, we decided let's go with CVS. Let's do it well, let's get our processes in place. We could have gone to two retailers at the same time, knowing they were going to hold our money. And so we made the… and I think it was a very wise decision. It's hard though, because you want the sales, especially as a Founder, you're like, I want to grow twice as fast, but it's got to be smart growth and controlled growth if you want to be around 10 years from now, and you want to break that 10 million, like you're not going to do it day one. So, think out a little longer term. 

Sean: [00:28:53] Yep, 100%. And you know, the fails on the way up are the ones that people rarely hear about. And so, you know, the Founder that actually took on three extra contracts, ran out of money because they over promised, couldn't deliver. Those are the stories you don't usually hear it, but that's why one of the kinds of guests that we're interviewing in this show is insolvency practitioners and accountants and lawyers who deal with the litigation and the fallouts and the people that ran out of money, because they’re just as instructive because not everybody makes that decision about going… well, I've got accelerated growth or controlled growth, and how do I think about my risk profile depending on which decision I make. You had another story that I really would love for you to share, which sound like it was a pretty challenging experience around your product recall. 

Elyse: [00:29:38] Oh, talk about heat-breaker. 

Sean: [00:29:41] I love it. The first one you smiled, and the last one you're like, oh my God.

Elyse: [00:29:46] It's still painful, man. Like you never get over it. So in 2020 year of COVID, you know, everybody talks about how hard year 2020 was. Well, our year 2020 was very difficult, but not because of COVID because we decided to do a voluntary recall, and it was by far the toughest decision I've ever had to make, cost us over 1 million dollars. And we had to go to every single retailer that carried this product. It was our fastest growing product at the time, and it wasn't going to hurt anyone, but there was documentation in terms of the dating of the product. So, meaning the expiration date that started failing in some of our stability studies. So just meaning the dating we had on the carton now was not accurate. Again, it wasn't going to hurt anybody, but for the long-term viability of my company and relationship with retailers and our customers, I knew it was the right thing to do, not the easy thing to do. Not the thing I had to do, but it was the right thing to do. And there's a big distinction there, right. Because if I had looked just at the bottom line, I would have said; no, we're keeping it on the market, just sell through it and we'll figure it out. So… but because our philosophy as a company has put people over profits, we think about long-term relationships.

So, when we made the decision, we immediately contacted the retailers. I was very, very upfront and transparent with them, called them each directly, had a personal conversation, and said why we're doing what we're doing and that they needed to pull the product immediately off their shelves and send it back to us. And what I can tell you what I learned, very painful, very costly. But the buyers at the stores still to this day, like I'm now having meetings with them about selling new products in every single one of them has given us praise on how we handled it. And so that's what makes me feel good about it. I wasn't trying to hide anything from them. I told them, look, we're growing fast. We made a mistake and people forgive you. And, you know, they'll give you another chance. And all the retailers took in different products of ours, they replaced it on the shelf. So, it ended up, I would say being sort of best case out of a worst case. 

Sean: [00:32:38] Yeah, well, it really breeds a positive sense of trust. Doesn't it? You know, that if those long-term relationships are important and nothing's going to build more goodwill than actually taking ownership for something that they can, and they know that you could have kind of dodged it, or you could have just worked around it or just sort of put it to the side, but actually you were building with a long-term orientation. And a thing I love about that is, it's not just a business lesson, that is a personal development lesson, right? That is the kind of lesson that I share with my kids, like everybody can do the stuff that's fun and easy, but actually the ones that succeed in the long term are the ones that take the medicine, do the things that are hard, do the things they know they should do, when they should do it, whether they feel like it or not.

And you had an internal indicator saying, you know what? I know in my gut that this was the right thing to do and therefore, regardless of the cost, I know I've got to make that decision so I can sleep at night, and I know it will be painful, but I also know it'll be long-term beneficial. That's amazing. What a wonderful… well, not a wonderful experience at the time, but it's always great I think to hear Founders having made those incredibly ethical decisions and off the back of it, fundamentally succeeding more in the future.

Elyse: [00:33:48] Yeah, And I will add to that, that we forget as leaders that our employees are watching us, you know, just like our kids are watching us and the decisions we make and how we make decisions. And we were very transparent with our team, but you know, they saw me cry. I mean, they saw how hard of a decision this was. And one of them… it still gives me chills thinking about, she came up to me in private and she said, I have so much respect for what you just did. And because I'm a Mom, you know, those lessons are just as important because they might be running companies one day or making business decisions. And for them to see the hard decisions get made. 

Sean: [00:34:33] And actually for them to see the vulnerability, because I think too often as leader, we were trying to keep everybody energised and giving them stay positive and be optimistic and all this, but actually they also need to see you to crumble when it's hard. And so, you pick yourself back up again, so they know that that's okay, and that it's possible for them to do that in the future. That's a level of authenticity, I think really breeds a super strong culture. What makes you come alive in business. And how does that show up in the way that you're building this organisation?

Elyse: [00:35:06] People, 100%. I mean, I get such a thrill out of seeing my employees try new things, take on new challenges, figure things out on their own. You know, they might ask for a little input here and there, but we have an environment where you're empowered to go figure it out, bring an idea to the table, go do a little research and then figure out how to do it. And we'll support you if it's good for the business. So, that gives me the greatest joy. And then, taking time to celebrate those. It's hard as a leader to stop and celebrate.

I'm not great at it by any means, but every few months, we try to have a little internal celebration or we just went bowling as a group, or, you know, just take an afternoon out of the office and appreciate the people because they're the ones making it happen every day. 

Sean: [00:36:06] Yeah 100%. And you I'm really interested in … how you've managed your own personal boundaries when you're a… you're a human as well as a Founder. You know, sometimes we can feel it like people can get attached to the identity and it's like business at all costs, but fundamentally when you've got a family and also probably those of us who are a bit more mature in life and we've been through some other stuff, you know, we may not have the energy of the 20 year old is willing to put in 100 hours a week into their start-up.

But it takes a significant amount of attention and focus and commitment, and that can have personal impacts on health or relationships or family. How have you approached that balance between making sure you've got the energy you need, the relationships are intact, your family's protected, all those sorts of things.

And not that it's just okay and on pause, but how do you focus on building a business and keeping yourself evolving and your relationships evolving at the same time? How have you approached that?

Elyse: [00:37:08] So a couple things. One, you know when I decided to start this business, my husband and I had a long conversation and he is a 50-50 partner with me when it comes to raising our family and the house, and, you know just… because I wasn't going to be able to be “full-time mom” and business owner. I needed a true partner and he has always been, I mean, that's why I married him. But you know, when you starting a business, I mean, there were some days, especially like through that recall, I would leave the house at 06:30 in the morning and get home at 08:30 at night and he would have taken care of everything; you know, dinner, laundry, whatever. So that's number one. Just make sure you have a good partner that's willing to be in the trenches with you.

Number two, I exercise. I get up early every morning by five o'clock and I have at least an hour to myself. So usually, I'm cycling or running or bootcamp … and for me, that's my time. It's enjoyable. I love exercise. It gives me a mental and physical release, and it is sacrosanct, you know, nothing comes between me and that workout. On the other side of the day, I am very rigid with my bedtime. So, you know, my kids are teenagers now. They put themselves to bed, but you know, I'm in bed at eight. I may read for an hour, but I just don't go out.

I don't go to dinners. I don't, because I have found for my mental and physical health, I have to have my sleep. And so then between, I would say 17:30 and 20:00 that's my kids time. And so it's family time. We try to have dinner together, go to their sporting events, and then if they've got something to school, I just leave, I go get it done, and I try to be an example of that for my employees, because I want them to integrate their life. Not feel like their life is sub-divided. 

Yeah, so if they need to run out and take care of their dog or go to the doctor or go see their parents or whatever, you know, just get your work done. But you got to take care of your family because they take care of you, right? It's a circle. So, I would say those are the things I do to try to take care of myself. 

Sean: [00:39:37] That's fantastic. And it's really challenging for a lot of Founders who end up with the business over everything else, and they ended up with a successful business, but no one around to share the spoils with no sort of connectivity, completely burned out, no energy, or … that's all I've got, like that's their identity, that's everything. And then it can become a quite a difficult that can also cloud some of their decisions about the way the business builds strategically.  When you think back on this journey so far, what are you proudest of?

Elyse: [00:40:11] I would honestly say the culture that we have built. I mean, I feel like we have really happy employees that want to be here, that feel like they're making a difference, that are learning something new on a regular basis, because I have been in so many work environments in my past where people were burned out. They didn't feel valued. They felt like they were just a number, you know, a cog in the wheel. And I didn't want that for this company. And so, I'm really proud of what we've created in terms of culture. And then, I mean, honestly, this sounds silly, but I mean, I still pinch myself when I go to the drugstore and I see our full line of products on the shelf because it's just… I can't believe we have done this. 

Sean: [00:41:00] Do you ever sort of just tap on the shoulder and say… Do you know, that's mine, that's my product? See, do you like this one? Do you like that? This is mine.

Elyse: [00:41:07] Well, my kids are so funny because they're like we have to stop in the store again and go see mom, because I have to stop in every drugstore I pass. And go run in and to see it on the shelf and fix it on the shelf and then keep going. Doesn't matter what city we're in.

Sean: [00:41:21] I love that. 

Elyse: [00:41:22] So, my kids are seeing sort of that pride. So hopefully I'm incubating some entrepreneurs in my household. 

Sean: [00:41:29] There’s always ways to embarrass our children, but I love that. That is gold. So, when you think about… let's go ahead into the future. So, what does this business look like three years from now?

Elyse: [00:41:41] So, we are ultimately building this business to sell at least the product lines off to multinationals that can take these products global that already have the infrastructures built and set up. Eosera is really what I would consider an innovation company. And so, I would like to, I think we are capable of maximising US distribution, get into as many retailers as we can in the US, grow the sales and then let another company buy it and take it global from there. So that's what I see. I'm cloudy on the timeframe of what that looks like, honestly, because there's so many moving parts and variables. But I feel like we've got so many other ideas for other categories that Eosera doesn't necessarily go away, but product lines may evolve and shift over time.

Sean: [00:42:41] You know, what I love about that is it, when I think about some of the questions I've asked you, what clearly lights you up is actually finding the gap, right? The innovation, the finding the problem in the category. Here's a whole, I'm going to dive into that. And so, I can imagine you're getting exceptionally… even though you've got plenty of corporate experience, actually being incredibly bored… having to then build… basically then you're just building an organisation, as opposed to you really love the product innovation side. So, I think that sounds like a really interesting approach. Let me take you even further out. I have a little segment that I do with all of our scalers called ‘Above All Else’. So, I want you to think about… imagine you're in your yearning years. Bit later on in life, you've got an incredible amount of wisdom in that mind of yours, you've achieved all the things you've wanted. You’ve started many businesses or products or nailed every category you want it to go after, maybe taking a little bit easier now, but the CEO of the world's largest global community of first time Founders, tens of millions of them around the world, you're all super hungry to figure out how do they get their business to scale to the next level. She gives you an opportunity a once in a lifetime opportunity to share your three above all else's with that group. And she says, I'd like you to finish this sentence. Above all else, the three things that you must get right as a Founder, if you want to scale are…? How would you finish that sentence? What would be your three above all else's?

Elyse: [00:44:07] Culture, funding, and opportunity. So, meaning that if it's a product or service, you got to make sure that there's actually a need in the market for it. 

Sean: [00:44:21] Yep. A big enough addressable market to kind of make a work. Yeah. I love that. Elyse, thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful conversation for me. I'd really like to acknowledge you for the way that you've built this business, you have had in that short six-and-a-half-year timeframe, some really significant challenges. And I know a lot of Founders who would have gone, you know what? This is just too hard. This is not actually what I thought it was going to be, maybe all to retreat to the safety of the larger corporation where I know I can kind of nail things, but it's so tough personally. You're growing personally, but you have stayed absolutely unshakable in your conviction. You've continued to be flexible and found a way through, and you've obviously attracted people around you who have supported you through that; both from a team level, from a peer level and obviously it sounds like a wonderful relationship with your partner and your family. How can people who would love to follow what you're doing, how do they get in touch or follow along with the journey of your business?

Elyse: [00:45:16] So definitely through our website, www.Eosera.com, that's EOSERA.com. You can learn about our products, you can contact us. And then through social media, Elyse Dickerson on most socials, LinkedIn and Facebook and those kinds of things, but would love to hear from people. I'm a big advocate, especially for women in business. I'm always willing to lend an ear or lend my lessons learned, because I've certainly got a lot of them, and I think we learn more from our failures than our successes, so, yeah please reach out. 

Sean: [00:45:59] I agree. Thank you so much. Well, you know, folks, I hope you've enjoyed the show today. Huge thanks to Elyse and a couple of things before you go, if you got value from today and from the stories that you've heard, it'd be great if you could leave a review for the podcast on Apple iTunes, the algorithm really helps, other people get access to it. But of course, it also really gives our team a big kick. There's a number of people that work on this podcast. It's certainly not just me, and that really gives them a big boost along. If you would like to know when new episodes are about to drop or free tools and resources are going to be launched, please just go to the website, www.scaleupspodcast.com. You can register your email there. You can also on the website, use the SpeakPipe button on the right-hand side. If you want to ask a question for myself or a future guest or someone like Elyse, please just leave an audio message. We'll make sure that we get it through to that person and we will address it on an upcoming podcast. If you love the socials, you can find us on @scaleupspodcast on pretty much any of the platforms you can imagine, but remember, and you've heard it today in every ounce of these stories from Elyse, The only thing that I can guarantee that will ensure you won't be able to scale up is actually giving up. So, you have to stay unshakeable, unbreakable in your conviction and your faith that you are going to succeed, and you have to retain incredible amounts of flexibility exactly the same time and hold that dichotomy in your hands to make it work. You've been listening to the ScaleUps Podcast. I'm Sean Steele, and I look forward to speaking to you again next week. Thanks so much, Elyse. 

Elyse: [00:47:21] Thank you.