Podcast Transcript

[00:00:27] Sean: G’day everyone and welcome to the Scale Ups Podcast. I'm your host, Sean Steele. And this is the podcast where we help first-time Founders learn the secrets of scaling so they can fulfill the potential of their businesses, make big decisions with greater confidence and of course maximise their value and impact that they can create in the world. I am joined today by Anneke van den Broek Founder and CEO of Rufus & Coco. Anneke, those with pets in our audience are very likely to know your brand. I certainly know that my black labradoodle Zoe runs around with your collars and leads. I bet for those who don't know your background, maybe if I can just provide a little bit of insight for our audience. And if I've got this right, you were eight when you started breeding and selling mice to your local pet store for 40 cents each. And I love those stories when you think about that sort of time pass, I remember I used to control the shirt ironing in our house for 50 cents each. And then once everybody got really comfortable and started jacking up the prices, because I knew everybody was attached to me doing it. But then you went into marketing, obviously, post-school and so on. You're into marketing and by 23 were single-handedly running 300 David Jones fashion shows a year and you've carried on in marketing, went into Blackmores if I'm not mistaken senior roles in the power group and in bonds. And then after your MBA and pregnant with your first child in 2009, I believe that's when Rufus and Coco. Wow. Amazing. And just the Rufus and Coco journey. So, you have taken from start-up over the last 14 years to the largest privately owned pet business in the pet accessories category, selling directly into the grocery channels industry and overseas, which is quite meaningful to put that into context because most of your competitors would be large multi-nationals but you'll selling into Woolies and Coles in Australia, PetSmart and Amazon in the US, Pet lovers in Singapore, just to name a few large bricks and mortar, as well as online retailers. And one of the staggering things that I learned when we first spoke after we were introduced by Esha Oberoi, Founder of AFEA Care Services. was that five years ago, you were selling about a thousand products a day, and now you're selling about four and a half thousand products a day, is that right?

[00:02:39] Anneke: That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's hard to believe, actually.  

[00:02:44] Sean: When you hear the numbers played back to you. How does that make you feel?  

[00:02:47] Anneke: Humbled, really. My vision for Rufus and Coco was to be in Australasian pet care brands, selling really fashionable, affordable environmentally friendly products to pet mothers like myself, because I really couldn't find anything at the time. And I suppose five years ago we went really global and we started to crack into the American market. And that was one of the things that stepped changed our growth a lot, along with many other decisions that we've made along the way, but it's humbling to hear those numbers and really where we are now, 13 years later has kind of suppose my initial expectation, but it's super cool too, because it gives a chance to reset what impact I believe we can have, you know, business full paid owners for the pet industry and for pets everywhere.  

[00:03:43] Sean: What's the percentage. I always think about this as a landlord, because I've got a few investment properties where the strata body doesn't want to have pets in the building. And I think that's like 60% or something of Australians have pets.  

[00:03:59] Anneke: Yeah. Actually, over 63% of Australians have pets and COVID probably contributed the largest growth that will happen in our lifetime to pet ownership. So, 45% growth of adoption, 23% growth, I think is with cats. And yeah, so we country of people that have grown up loving animals and understanding and experiencing the benefits to both our physical and psychological wellbeing. And it didn't really strike me how fundamental that was until I went to China and we started for our first time in the Chinese market. And I went to go and train with a translator on some of our products. And I thought I was training on some of the really cool natural ingredients that we have in our grooming products and the fact that we don't have parabens and all the nasties, and I thought I was training on all the ingredients, but actually what they wanted me to teach them is how to wash a dog. And I just kind of went okay, well, that's quite a few steps back. Exactly. So, pet ownership is such a new, I mean, it's not new now, like it's 10 odd years, but like in our culture, it's hundreds of years in kind of the Western culture.  

[00:05:23] Sean: Okay. Interesting. So how does it compare in say Singapore and the States to Australia in terms of that sort of percentage of homeowners, obviously in Singapore that a lot of apartment living. So, I imagine that, you know, the animals might be a lot smaller. But what is the sort of pet ownership percentages look like in those markets?

[00:05:41] Anneke: Oh, gee, I think it's 57%. So, they’re still very high, you know, I can't recall with credibility, the number for Singapore for you, but it's a lot lower.

[00:05:53] Sean: Very interesting. So, I know you've sort of alluded to it in a few of the comments you've made so far, but can you just take me back to the genesis of this business? So, they're back there in 2008, what made you start Rufus and Coco?  

[00:06:07] Anneke: Actually, I've always wanted to own my own business and run my own business. It was part of the reason I took myself back to do my MBA. I actually studied fashion and I thought that would get me so far and I'd need some business acumen to be able to run a business. And so, I'd always wanted to do it. And I was always trying to find the right time to do it. And in fact, one of my roles was as the general manager of Sports craft, I was there for six months and maybe redundant, which was quite a kick in the guts at the time, but the best thing that's ever happened to me, because I kind of just thought now is my moment, now is my moment. I'm going to really take this opportunity to do this now. And interestingly, at the time I had probably five business ideas, that I was playing with. I had the idea of larger women's clothing. I still believe that that's a massive gap that's not being well filled in this market. I had the idea of all sorts of ideas and I did what every good person does. When you made redundant. I went to Bali to drink some my ties and think about, which was going to be the ideal I progressed with. I went with a girlfriend and I remember sitting there with mai tai and cocktail napkin. And she goes, have you made your mind up yet? Like which one you're going to do? And I said, actually, yes. And I pulled up a napkin. I said, I'm going to create Australasia's best pet product brand representing quality and she's like; really? Cool. So, I came home and I literally hand wrote myself a little note on a piece of paper and I stuck it on the spare bedroom door, and it said global headquarters. And at that stage, I didn't even have a name for the business. And it’s was quite hard to believe now, but as you said, we operate in 10 countries, selling to about 5,000 customers, we’re Australia’s most awarded pet peer brand, selling about four and a half thousand products a day.  

[00:08:09] Sean: Wow. And did you end up moving that post it note or that sort of napkin to the new headquarters when you ended up or it's still on the same bedroom door or did it move?  

[00:08:19] Anneke: I’m two houses on since then actually, 13 years, two houses on, and, you know, I wished I'd kept some of those little bits and pieces, which is a note to everybody. I wish I'd kept my first cheque, because they are great stories, I think, for the team, even this morning, Sean, I said to the team. I often talk a lot about my story and often don't tell you some of these stories. So, I was telling them some of the stories this morning.  

[00:08:48] Sean: Yup, absolutely. How do you imbue them in the culture and actually the full journey if they've only joined three months ago and how do I capture some of these pivotal moments? Yeah. It’s fascinating. So, you have, I guess one of the things I'd love to dig into and dig in early today is a question that I've asked you to consider, which is, what have been some of those dial changing things that have happened in the business, whether they were decisions or strategies you put in place or major moments that actually really changed the trajectory. And of course, I'm also interested in some of the big challenging moments. I know there's been challenging moments along the way, and you wouldn't be in business for 14 years and have no challenging moments. So, maybe you could talk to me a little bit about some of those things that you think have been really pivotal in the changing of the growth trajectory of the business.

[00:09:37] Anneke: Let's take you back to the beginning. So, firstly, let me say, business is like a game of snakes and ladders. You know, one minute you kind of like climb up the ladder. You think you're pretty rocking it at that point. And then two squares later, if you hit a snake and you kind of potentially back down on the board past where you started, certainly it feels like it at the time. So, I think the ability to bend and not break, that resilience is key. Early on in the piece, I suppose breaking moment, it was actually when my husband at the time said to me, Anneke, if you don't crack it this year, this is three years in. If you don't crack it this year, we've got to go back and get a job. Let's face it. And that got me going. I decided that that was the year that I just had to, because there was just no way I was going to go back. You know, I'd spent…I was very successful in the corporate world for the most of my career, but I'd done my time there. And so that kind of, when you're forced to make a decision, when you kind of got, to me, there was no option to go back. So, that really got me started. I think the next thing was, we had a distributor and the first consumer's products who decided they were not moving into, they were not moving forward with pet care. And they would, the company were very grateful for that. Helped us establish ourself in grocery because getting into grocery, grocers are looking for suppliers that have a vendor number and a reputation for delivery because it's quite high risk to deal with a small business that doesn't understand all the nuances of grocery deliveries of fulfillment on shelf and everything else that's required. So one fine day, they decided they would not do that. And we took back our distribution, which involved me having to find a million dollars in eight weeks, and I think at that time, it really made me think, am I actually going to do this? Like I had to put my house on the line, and you know, at that stage I was a single parent. I thought, it's kind of risking everything and that was certainly something my father always told me, and that is whatever you do, you own your house. So that was very against my family's values. And so it took me a minute….It's hard to believe, but at the time, I actually sort of thought. I still might have to… I wasn't sure if I was going to keep going. And so, I think, having a real passion for what you do and a really… oh, I'm so sorry, Sean.  

[00:12:14] Sean: It’s okay, now we’re welcoming a cat to the podcast as well. I think, you mentioned this is a blind cat, as well?  

[00:12:22] Anneke: My sincere apologies. She's assigned me. I'm a cat who recently gone blind and you know, so she's very insistent, at either coming in or coming out of the door whenever she wants to. So, I think that yes, having a passion for what you do. But what you do is key because invariably you hit those roadblocks where you actually would kind of go, am I going to find a million dollars in eight weeks and put my ass on the line? Or do I really believe that I'm actually going to make this and…

[00:12:55] Sean: How did you weigh up that decision, because I mean, that is a significant, just to pause there for a minute. That is a very significant decision. As a single parent and putting your house on the line, like, you just think about the compounding levels of risky going, okay, well, do I take on a million dollars? Do I have the time? Do I have the network? Do I have the skills to find the million dollars? What does it mean for my house and for my family and the risk profile for us, it's against the family's values and everything you've been taught from sort of data, that's a huge decision. Was that like a pluses and minuses, was it a gut check? Like how did you actually make that decision to decide to go forward?  

[00:13:34] Anneke: Very challenging. Many tears. Definitely the rational list making. I'm in 3dbgs as well. So, I did my fair degree of energy healing and Reiki and other modes to try and get clear on what I wanted. And it's just getting really clear on why it started in the first place. What I set out to do, what I was actually setting out to do, why I was doing it, what I thought I was good. Whether I thought any of those things were relevant to take us forward as a business. And I suppose when I sort of started, because it took me so much longer to find my stride in business. Like most people say it takes a long time to get to 2 million.

And then once you were 2 million, it takes a long time to get to 5 million. And it feels like a long time. And I think I'd always sort of said, I want to lie on my deathbed and say to myself. Anneke, you gave it a good shot. I just didn't want to live with the regret of not trying. And I figured I'd already come so far. And, and interestingly, I think to the outside world, I would have considered us successful. But you know, when you look inside the business, the reality of the cost of trying to get to where you are and the people in the business, and that actually don't make you look very successful on the outside, but the bottom line is representing something quite different to that. So, I decided I’d give it a good shot.

[00:15:01] Sean: And also, it's not a friendly working capital profile in your sort of industry. I imagine, there's many service businesses that don't realise how fortunately, when they're getting paid up front or they're getting significant amounts of cash early that sort of fund everything and they can fund everything out of cashflow. There's lots of businesses that are developing products and we spoke to a fantastic female Founder recently, Elise from Eosiera a biotech business in the States. And she was talking about the same thing, dealing with some of the largest retailers there where she wasn't getting paid for six to nine months after she'd put that money in to get the products in hand and won some big volume deals. Everyone's going hooray. She's like but I've got to get 40,000 products out in the next 90 days and I don’t have the finance for it. Like how do I do that? Really crazy scramble. What did you learn from that experience? So, first of all, it'd be great to know, well, how did you find the million dollars? Like what was the funding model you ended up choosing a financing model. And the secondly, what did you learn from that experience?  

[00:16:05] Anneke: Where we found the money was actually through the banks that we use since Georgia as our partners now, we’ve been through many banking partners. And so, I'm still the sole director of the business. And I'm very happy with that model because I think I've gotten very clear on over the years is that what motivates me is the autonomy to do it my way. And so, also, how I know the fabulous issue is that we belonged in the entrepreneurs organisation together. So, I hear a lot of stories of other Founders just as you would have that have had partners and taken other financial money in other ways, and it's just limited their ability to have control. And so, over the years, I’ve gotten very clear on that. And what I think really helped me is that when I'm having a tough day, when I've hit another snake, I just remind myself why I'm doing it. And actually, you know, it's like one of those exercises where you kind of go, if money was no object or you want a million dollars, or what is it that you actually care about? And improving humanity, one pet at a time is what I care about.

[00:17:20] Sean: That's awesome. What an incredible driving force to deal with the inevitable challenges and the big dips that come up. And I know I've mentioned numerous times on this podcast, when you zoom out on any growth curve, it's just as series of jagged ups and downs. It's never a straight line. The further, you zoom out, the more beautiful it looks and it looks round and it looks just gorgeous. And then you zoom right in. And it's like up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, but hopefully the trend is scaling up for a period of time. Okay, so talk to me about, what else do you think founders really neat to be thinking about? Or I guess, something that you think is instructive to others that really helped you change the trajectory of your business.  

[00:18:07] Anneke: So some other things that happened to us was looking at, I suppose, higher term products. So, we set out quite intentionally in pet accessories, and we were able to grow by stealth if you like, like when we started and where was we started with 23 SKUs and I will say we had about 400 pet specialty customers at the time. But moving into Woolworths and getting ranging of 23 SKUs, it was mainly in accessory type products. And we were able to do that because we were really focused on the design and the quality of those products and put a little bit of attention into the detail. Whereas our competitors were very focused on food and three is secondary to anything they'll do in food.

And so, we were able to wedge ourselves in that way. So that really worked, and then it got to a point where we were in the door with that. And so then how will we going to grow? And so, then we had to turn to your higher term categories, such as, [Inaudible] and toys and other products that we didn't originally sort of start with. The other thing that we did all the ways is that we pulled out a cat litter to us. So, we have a brand called Wee Kitty by Rufus and Coco, and it's an environmentally friendly cat litter made from a highly renewable source that is flushable and outperforms, frankly, any of the world's litters we’ve tested, it’s so awesome because the average cat in Australia produces 200 kilos of waste a year through its litter. And most of the litters that are actually bought, either stripped mined, which involves destroying natural habitats, or they produce a lot of pollutants things like Silicon and crystal litters. So, we decided to keep that brand for pet specialty exclusively, and that meant that we could definitely keep growing the pet speciality market at the same time as growing up our grocery customers, and that was quite key to our growth. I think the other thing is people. At the end of the day, there's 24 hours in each day. And we need great people to get things done. And I think my entire day yesterday was spent on people problems, actually, everything from hiring to dealing with problems, to dealing with all sorts of… I spent my entire day yesterday dealing with people. And so it can be really tricky, but it's just a necessary part of growth and getting the right people in the right seats is actually something I do relentlessly all the time. And then making sure that if they're on the right seats, are they still the right people for the next five years, next five years. And this thing we've got a checklist where we as a leadership team say would I enthusiastically rehire this person. And the word enthusiastic is very because it's like, oh, they’re really good because they know a lot about everything. I'm like, yes, but are you enthusiastically rehiring them. And you know, obviously we're working to always develop and grow our people and many of them have done things that they’ve never dreamt of doing themselves, which is so cool to see.

[00:21:27] Sean: And I think that's an exceptional question. I've used the same one for many years, myself, and it's always really challenging when you do a gut check and go, how enthusiastic am I about that yes. Am I saying yes, because I think they're sort of good enough and good enough for now, or not bad or, to your point, am I enthusiastic, this person must stay on the bus. Absolutely delivering heaps of value, perfect for this business, lots of growth opportunity and so on. What do you do when you're in a process? Okay, you're evaluating some team members and the answer is no, I probably wouldn't enthusiastically rehire them again. What process do you and your leadership team go to, to think about what do you do now?  

[00:22:09] Anneke: I think the first question is why, is it a skills problem, is it a values misalignment, is it something that they did that was really off-brand, is it actually just that they always some why. So, I think it's on thinking about ‘why’ and then it's having a conversation with the actual individual. So, I think the challenge in managing people and for your people managing their people is their ability to have difficult conversations that are productive. And it does take guts to walk up and have those conversations. And actually listen, try to really listen to what people are telling you. I would always try to solve for, so can we train this person, can we buddy the person, can we change the roles in the department to make it work? Because you know, it's not a kind of… I think it was Gandhi that said, if you judge a fish's ability by climbing a tree, you'll always think it's a failure. You know, sometimes people are actually just better placed in different roles and if you can make that happen, then you can. And so we have a quarterly conversation with everybody where they'd go through their own process of seeing if they think they're the right fit, according to the values of that business and according to their performance, which gets measured in sprints. So, we run the EOS traction process. So, it might be a helpful resource that there's a book called Traction, which is what. Jane Wickman. And it runs up at the enterprise operating system and through that every department has its own dashboards and numbers. And so, everyone can see very clearly and we can see very clearly who is on track and who is not on track. So, I suppose that's the results and the skills approach. I think the hard part to train is the quality of the person, and whether their values are really aligned to the brand or not. And, so I think that's the harder part, but then I think we would have failed somewhere actually in the hiring of those people, because we should have better checked that. And then I will say my girlfriend listen to gamble. You know, I used to say, well, your age… she won HR director of year. I'm like, you give me the secret formula. She's like Anneke, she's the loveliest woman. She says Anneke, you just don't get it right all the time. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, so she's saying the same thing that sometimes you've just got to cut yourself some slack, people like icebergs, you only see what there is on the surface. You want to hear what they tell you, everything else that's going on. It’s about them, it's not about what you're doing in the business. So, I think sometimes you just…  

[00:24:58] Sean: I think also sometimes, it's hard when your business is growing and you're thinking about where it needs to go next. And so, you're asking yourself hard questions about, is this the team that's going to take us to the next level? Do we have what we need? Do we have people who know how to get to the next level? Are they the right ones that lead us to the next level? And so sometimes the business grows around the people and above the people that doesn't mean they're bad people. And that does might mean that somebody else is needed for the next stage of the journey. And I like thinking about, I think sometimes it is entrepreneurs or intrapreneurs, we are often hard on ourselves about the fact that we couldn't retain all the best talent for the longest periods of time, but also there needs to be some recognition sometimes that people come into our chat and that's almost like there's two intersecting lines, their life and our business's journey. And sometimes two or three years might be the perfect amount of time. And actually, we should be really excited when we let them go into the next opportunity because they were there for a part of that journey. We can make it valuable for them. We can make it valuable for us. But I think sometimes when we've really worked hard on building a culture, it can also sometimes feel like failure when somebody gripe, you don't get to keep but it always obviously creates spice full for the next one. I've got a question for you, Anneke. You mentioned to me that. You got some real… not every Australian organisation who's wanted to export has successfully entered markets. And when you're thinking about the business model you have in the market in which you're domiciled. So, if you're an Australian business in Australia or vice versa, but often, when you go to a new market, you make a whole bunch of assumptions before you get there. And a lot of those assumptions get tested pretty fast. You mentioned that you got some learnings through your expansion overseas. Can you share what some of those learnings were?  

[00:26:37] Anneke: Absolutely. Lots of learnings here. If you ever tried to walk through a door with a broom turn sideways, that's what we tried to do when we entered the States. We operate across 12 different categories. We roped up to the States and we took a stand at the global pet expo and we said, Rufus & Coco. And everyone came along and they're like, well, what do you do? We were like we do everything. Like, what do you need? Then, but what do you really do? We're like, well, we do all of this, we do this and this and this. And they're like, they couldn't quite get us. Like it was not really sticking. And look, we rocked up to about three trade shows like that. Trade shows are expensive. That was stupid, but in hindsight, but we did. And I would say that we were good at is asking questions. So, everyone that come along with, oh, what's happening in your business, well, what do you like…lots of questions to try and understand but people were really gravitating to, and I think on our fourth show, what we did is we sold cat litter. We took one of our products and we went, this is the one, that wasn't just a result of rocking out to these trade shows we've been in the market. I could pretty much tell you what is sitting on Pets mart, every mud bay, every retail has shelves. I've certainly had photos and I could tell you what was on the shelves, that whatever price, we would have spoken to all these different retailers, anyone who would talk to us, I would go and talk to other suppliers, and brands like how it's going to go. Oh, hi. We're from Australia. I mean, that's the great thing about being a tall blonde Australian woman is that people are like accent is best, and we've got this way about us that's very different. They've got a very different approach, and just on that point, I would say that that's one of the things I love about running a global business. When I woke up to do a sales presentation in Singapore or a sales presentation in America, which I don't do so much myself these days, but I do love it if someone lets me out of the office and I'm a very different, I have a very different style. I'm very sensitive to culture. So, when I present in America, I am as big and as loud and as over the top about all our achievements, as I possibly can be. It's not my natural style. So, I make myself say all these things about how well and how well this many things and how many, like how great we are. If I go into Singapore, it's very to Junior even the way I dress and present myself, it's very junior. So I do love their sensitivities in doing business in the different markets. One of the things that has taken us, I think just in some markets in America is certainly one of these. It took us a while for people to realise that we weren't coming in and going out, what actually happens in the American market is they've seen a lot of people enter and in three years, time then out they're showing up and they keeping on showing up was we're not going away. And so, it was costing a lot of, we were burning a lot of money. It actually bought us credibility. And now we work with these incredible sales agents that represent us in the States who take us seriously, who are really on point salespeople, the people we were working with before, were like used car salesman. So, there's a big difference because now they take us seriously. And I have seen what we can do in other markets. I think there's all sorts of other things in terms of we've changed packaging for markets, we’ve changed size of products for market. We had to consider it for the States where you warehouse.

I mean, it's a massive country with mountain ranges in between that I'd like to be skiing down by now, but you need to consider where your warehouse being moved around. So lots of things to consider, but I thought it very exciting. I have to say I like complex problems and certainly exploring to new markets is a complex problem.

[00:30:54] Sean: Yeah, absolutely. So congratulations to you and to your business on the success you've actually had in entering those markets, because it is really difficult. And so, what I heard from that is obviously many things, but one of the things right up front is, just because you've got a business model that works here. It doesn't mean that that's the same product set, the same style. That's the category, that's the problem. And it's not different to figuring out your customer in Australia. It's just that you've become accustomed to understanding their needs. And so, you know what it is they want, but you enter a different market. You got a different customer with different problems, different mindset, different competitors, and all the things that you hoped were the same. Probably won't be the same, but that doesn't mean there's not an opportunity as long as you're willing to do the work to find it. What advice have you received along the way that's really had an impact on you as a leader and from whom?

[00:31:47] Anneke: Firstly, I would call out my dad, my great big Dutch father. So, as a little girl and a little tot at the side of the swimming pool, he pushed me in one day trying to teach me how to swim and yelled at me to swim to the end of pool and back. Before he actually pushed me in, he said, Anneke, tell yourself three times you can do anything you want to if you try. I mean, he did it more like this; Anneke tell yourselves you can do anything you want to, if you try, it was kind of terrifying, like a Schwarzenegger character. And so, looking up at him I went, I could do anything. I want to retire, he said say it was like, how do you do anything I want if I try, he's like, say it louder, I just do it. And I have to say it is something that's absolutely stuck with me that message, many years later unfortunately my father's not with us anymore. Many years later I told him that story. He couldn't even remember the day he did that. So, I think just a belief that, if you set your mind to it and if you really want something, you can really do anything you want to if you try, something I try and instil in my children now. My mentor, Andrew Smith, who is…

[00:33:01] Sean: I’m sorry, just to add one thing to what you just said about your dad and God bless him. That's an amazing gift to have given you. And one other thing that's become obvious just through the earlier part of your story around some of the challenges that you faced is it's not only having the belief that you get there and the conviction, but it's also evaluating what's the price I'm going to have to pay to get it, and then actually be willing to pay that price. And you have prices a pay all the way along. Like you had to take some major risks. So, you might've had the conviction that I was going to do it, but then you still have to go, this is a really big price pay. Am I willing to pay that price to stay on that journey and keep going after it? And you found that conviction. Sorry, you were carrying on with another.  

[00:33:42] Anneke: Oh, that's very true because I mentor a lot of people and they’re saying well, Anneke, I don't have and I'm going to get an investor and I'm like, investors often look for you to put your money where your mouth is. So, what have you got? What can you put in? What you're planning to spend so that you can get to a point of concept testing and it's really at the time, I think a lot of people started going on and getting it, someone to back me and give me money. So, it's not easy. The second thing I was talking about with Andrew Smith. Who's been my mentor for many, many years and he's always telling me to focus. I think like a true entrepreneur, I can give you an idea much, an idea that goes with an idea with another idea on top. And he's like, that's great but let's get focused on, what is bringing you money? And what is costing you money and let's grow this thing and stop this thing. And he's getting me to focus and so, what I have increasingly over time done is surrounded myself with these people that are really good at managing the day to day, are really good at managing the 5,000 orders and the X number of products that are now stuck on some ship that got pirated and all the things that go wrong along the way. Because running day to day is not really what gets me out of bed. I like building new things and I like solving problems and I liked the people and the product. And so, he's really good, he helps my shiny penny syndrome. I would add that I love, I mean there are some books that I'm sure people have heard before but “Who” which is the book by Jeff Smart, it's an absolute classic Jim Collins, “Good to Great”.  

[00:35:45] Sean: Can I just ask you, what did you learn from “Who”? What was like one thing that you really took out of that, that really stuck with you?

[00:35:54] Anneke: The first, if you’re try to solve a problem, I think you need to ask yourself who is it? And do I have the capabilities on my [Inaudible] currently? And if not, I need to find them. And then what is my process to find them? And I suppose it talks about people being [Inaudible] Because unless it is, you won't have the right people to match whatever capabilities you need for your future plans.

[00:36:20] Sean: We lost your audio for a second there, but you said, people basically sort of talent sourcing identification is a constant process, is that what you were saying? I agree, I always sort of liken it to people buying property, which I always find a really fascinating little microcosm in that. People take often a very small amount of time, to invest in something they're going to have for an exceptionally long amount of time. It's probably going to be one of the largest assets they'll ever own. If it goes wrong, it can be painful for a really long time and really hard to get out of it. And if it goes well, it can be incredibly rewarding and really fantastic for the future potential and wealth building and options and all the rest. It's very similar with people, sometimes we're in such a hurry to hire someone because we've got a problem to solve, we've got a seat to fill. And so, we put in a very tiny amount of effort in reality, in sticking a job out up and say, running through a few fine screens, having a couple of interviews, just hoping we'll find somebody good enough saying, yes. And then you are now stuck with this person now, you're not stuck with them forever. But the amount effort and attention, and impact that that individual can have in your organization positively or negatively, is huge. But I love books like “Who” that really help you understand and do some deep thinking about, how you're sourcing them, where are you sourcing them from? What's your process going to be to ensure that you get the best possible outcome for your organization. And I think that's just, I could think it can be an absolute game changer for people in the way they think about their business. What was the other book that you mentioned again? Okay. I apologize to our audience. It looks like we had a little technical hiccup then where things just disappeared. So, we're back in the game, with about 10 more beautiful minutes with Anneke. Anneke, you just finished talking to us about “Who” and we were sort of unpacking some of the learnings around people and recruiting the right talent for your organization. You, were about to start telling us about another couple of books that had really influenced you and some learnings that you've got in “Good to Great”. One of them sounded like scaling up too. You want to just give us some insights as to, what was impactful for you out of those and what you've perhaps practically applied?

[00:38:35] Anneke: I think scaling up really, I suppose, chunks it down into four key categories, from strategy to people, to cash and process. And then who's sort of fondly known as the growth hack. I suppose, really gives you some tools and some frameworks that enable you to assess yourself in each of those different areas. So, I found it very helpful, even things like cash cycles. We, were talking before, about how long it takes to get the cash from some customers. And sometimes like over the course of our time and in dealing with a lot of Chinese suppliers, just managing our payments terms to them versus when we're getting paid, it makes a massive difference. So, I think just using the tools in that book are brilliant sort of diagnostic and solutions tool and they give you some really excellent best practice examples to go by.  

[00:39:46] Sean: If I was to think of, out of a hundred entrepreneurs that you might interview, I would say there's probably half, who've actually read that book and are applying at least some of the methodology frameworks in their businesses for great benefit. Of course, many of them are changing it to suit themselves, which I think is always the point, take a model and make sure that it fits for you and for your organization. But it's a very commonly referenced book scaling up. I really think there's a lot of value in some of the knowledge and what about “Good to Great”. It was obviously there's a lot of learnings out of the Jim Collins books, people referenced different ones. What have you taken from Jim Collins and how has that helped you, grow your business?  

[00:40:20] Anneke: I think just in the principles of what makes good and what makes great and I suppose it's in all the one percenters that can really turn your business on its ear and in a way, simplify it down. I have to admit it was a long time since I read that one, I've read so many, so I'm a bit of a business book junkie. So, I suppose when I think about your question, which is where do I get most of my advice and tips from, I suppose the mentor, my community which is probably my number one source these days, because even speaking to someone about her production business, a few weeks ago and how she was managing the COVID thing, inspired me for ways that we could do implement something in the focus on for our customers. It's completely non-related but so, I'm an extroverted thinker. Often, I'll be getting my ideas by talking to people, which is why locked down, has me climbing the walls at the moment. The other thing, I did want to share is actually one of my best lessons has been to do the numbers first, because I'm very good at I think finding ideas and coming up with concepts and actually even selling and I can convince you that you really need that, and find all sorts of ways and figure out if you're someone that likes facts or whether you’re someone that you're more the emotional sell and I'll pitch it to you in a way that will try to get the outcome, I desire. The thing that I've learned is that, going to do the numbers because all these ideas can be really great. But when you work out the minimum cost, the resources you need to allocate to it really, to pull it off the ground. How much do you need to spend on the marketing? How long it's going to take you to pull off, how big that actual market is. When you didn't do the numbers, sometimes you're better off just not starting. And when my journey through business has been; that's a really good idea, let's do that. And actually, I wasted a lot of my own money and my own team's time, which is also my money, in placing down these rabbit holes that, if I hadn’t spent even a day really pulling apart all the data, I could find getting all the opinions I could find really market testing it. And putting down the bottom line of it and then kind of going well, is it worth doing it for that? And how long does it really going to take that to turn into that? How are we really long?

[00:42:56] Sean: It really comes down to having a good understanding of that, particularly if you're good at selling ideas to whether, if you externalize your ideas and therefore you probably get, you talk your ideas out. You're generally, also somebody who can sell ideas well. And the problem with that, that's me too and the problem with that as we both probably explored is. You can find that you're very good at selling to yourself. So, you can develop some serious conviction in an idea that's being, not through anyone who's wearing any kind of black hat that hasn't been tested. And hasn't been through a cashflow analysis. It hasn't been through market testing and you're like, that's all boring. We should just do it because I know this thing's going to work. It's like, yep. It's somebody sometimes needs to pull you back and go well, let's just do a bit more methodical thinking so we can assess that better. And I think that really comes to, who you bring into the tent because you probably don't need four other people like you, who can get people on board and get people behind the idea. because you do that so well, but you probably do therefore, need a good CFO, a good CCO or commercial officer someone who's going to be able to really help you tussle out your ideas. And who has that sort of methodical, let's test it before we jump on board with that.  

[00:44:04] Anneke: Yeah, totally. And I will add that to back up types that is that sometimes with some of the ideas that we’re wrong with that, the team was like, oh no, like that, and I decided to do it anyway. They've actually, and frankly, the whole business. When I started the whole business, pretty much everyone I'd spoken to told me that, it really was really no market for it. There was already products like it. I'd never get it ranged. Why would I waste my time? All sorts of things, and I sort of decided to do it anyway and I think building your own…so, I think I would caution all of that with really what do you want to do? Because if you really believe it, if you can… And sometimes it's always seems impossible until it's done. So, I think developing your own self-belief and having courage is also a part of that.  

[00:45:03] Sean: And it continues to build, doesn’t it? You get more wins on the ability and we slightly moderate over time, but you're a hundred percent right. If you only had people who are exceptional at finding problems and risks and reasons why something's not going to work, nothing's going to get. Because I'm always going to be driving and someone's going to be validating in partnership together. So consciously of how much time we've got left. I got two questions left for you. One is, I'd love to know what the business looks like in three years from now. I mean, you've had such a staggering trajectory in the last period. I mean, let's again, take a step back and recognise, you've been in business for 14 years.

And so, there are no overnight successes and the ones that are really, overnight successors are often quiet at high risk of failure, because like they're often growing so quickly that they're usually the most likely to run out of cash, other than businesses that have been built through a period of different kinds of cycles and over a period of time. But when you think about the trajectory you've had in the last five years, it's really accelerated, what do you think the business is going to look like in three years? How do you think about that future?  

[00:46:04] Anneke: I can see us being more global. So right now, we're in 10 countries, so I can say as being in more countries around the world, certainly. I can see us diversifying our customer base. COVID has really opened up a lot of doors that didn't exist for pet products. So, categories such as travel and other categories just don't exist or you can't sell product in these categories now. So non-traditional pet retailers have now extended into pet. And that's something that I think once I experienced the benefit from, and because so many Australians own pets and because I spend money on them like their children, I think it's a library that will stay in these non-traditional retailers. Certainly, we're growing our B2C presence with lines that are not sold in the same channel, so non-competing lines, but we also have the first salon, which is a premium grooming salon like a human hair salon. In fact, maybe fancy or even the way you would get your hair cut. I dare to say. We get some very loved up.  

[00:47:11] Sean: Guaranteed, by the way to be more fancy than where I get my haircut.  

[00:47:17] Anneke: Some very loved furballs. So, that is another B2C business that, and the grooming market is growing at 27% year on year and continuing to grow. And I think the model we've developed is really unique because it provides a very individualised, more boutique style based service. And we've got some other projects in work as well that, I mean more consumable categories. So, lots of, lots of plans ahead.  

[00:47:46] Sean: Wow. Lots going on. And there are some really exceptional times coming up for you in the business. So, final question for you then is a segment that I do with all of our Founders who scaled. And I want you to go out into the future, well beyond three years, go right out to actually let's consider it your yearning years. The time where you’ve built all the businesses that you want. You've tried all the business models that you want to, you created all the impact in the world that you really hope to have through your passion and energy and dedication and the CEO of the world's largest community of first-time Founders calls you and says, Anneke, I've got an opportunity for you to impart your wisdom on this tens of millions of hungry, first time Founders who are just trying to figure out how to scale their businesses. They're probably going quite well, but they're actually really trying to figure out how do they get to that next stage? And she asks you to finish this sentence. She says, above all else, the three things found is really need to focus on if they want to scale are what? How would you finish that sentence, above all else, the three things founders really need to focus on if I want to scale?  

[00:48:48] Anneke: Passion, product and people. They would be my three. And probably, I would say people number one and principally themselves. How do you get yourself out of bed every morning? How do you set yourself up for success every day? How is it that you remind everyone what the vision of the business is, how do you make sure you have the right people on the bus? But certainly, the passion make sure that the people on the bus share your passion and in terms of project, which could also extend to service. Make sure it's unique, make sure it's something people want to buy, make sure it's feasible and you know. I mean, it's all about being very sustainable in our product offering.

[00:49:39] Sean: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Anneke and girl, I’d like to acknowledge the way that you've built this business, I've just loved the brand. And I think one of the things that you've really brought is such an ethical framework to the way that you've thought about how you develop the brand. So, many people will develop a product that they really love, but you've actually built a whole sort of brand and brand experience. So the way your products have come to life and they really imbued with your own personal philosophies on actually what matters to people and looking after people and look after environments. And I think that's a real gift to the world and it exactly the kind of Founders that we love to interview because there are people who are…It's not just business for the sake of business, it's the Founders that are having real impact in the world through their product and service. And as Esha said to me, we don't need more laptops. We don't need more sort of different kinds of jackets, but actually if we've got businesses that can really change, create positive impact through the way they do that. That's a really wonderful gift for the world. So, I just wanted to thank you for your wisdom and sharing it with our community today. We really appreciate your time and sorry everybody for the little technical glitch. I'm sure we've solved that successfully. Anneke, how can people get in contact with you or follow along with what you are or the brand are doing?  

[00:50:50] Anneke: Oh, fantastic. Well, firstly, thank you for those lovely words. I appreciate that. Please follow me on LinkedIn. My name is a bit of a mouthful. It's Anneke van den Broek, it is a bit of a mouthful, but if you type in Anneke, it should come up, Insta as well. So probably LinkedIn and Insta is the best way.  

[00:51:10] Sean: Perfect. Wonderful. Well, folks. I hope you enjoyed the show today. Huge thanks to Anneke. Before you go, if you like what you've heard today, and you got some value from the wisdom of Anneke van den Broek, I suggest to jump onto Apple Podcasts, subscribe so you get the podcast coming into your feed. Please leave us a review. We get a huge kick out of that, all of our team does. We read every single one of them, and it really helps us improve and also really gives obviously the algorithms a good reason to put it in front of somebody else, so they get some value as well. If you'd like to be the first to know when new episodes are going to drop on you, free tools and downloads and resources, go to scaleupspodcast.com. You can pop your email address in there. You can also leave questions there on the SpeakPipe button, on the right-hand side of the website that allows you to just leave an audio message for someone like Anneke or for myself or a future guests to handle. I'd love to hear your questions about scaling it for your own business so we can handle those on the show. If you are in love with the socials, you can find us on @scaleups podcast at any of your favourite socials and you can see the full video versions on YouTube. But aspiring scholars, before we go, please remember, you've just heard a story of someone who has built a business for 14 years, and it has not been clear sailing. It gets hard and you know that it gets hard because you've probably already been through all sorts of hard times yourself. But as you heard today, sometimes you've got to dig deep and remember why you got into this business in the first place, the only thing that's going to guarantee that you can't scale up is giving up and therefore you have to stay on shakeable in your faith that you're going to get there, but you have to remain adaptable and flexible in your approach. And you've got to do those at the same time, which is the dichotomy that we've all got a handle and it's hard, but it's worth doing. So, you've been listening to the ScaleUps Podcast. I'm Sean Steel, look forward to being back in your podcast feed next week. And thank you so much, Anneke.  

[00:52:49] Anneke: Thank you so much.