Podcast Transcript

[00:00:38] Sean: G’day everyone and welcome to the Scaleups Podcast, where we help first-time Founders learn the secrets of scaling so they can fulfill the potential of their businesses, make bigger decisions with greater confidence and maximise the value and impact that they can create in the world. I'm your host, Sean Steele.

[00:00:52] And I'm joined today by a Maryanne Mooney, from The Worthy Leader. How are you?  

[00:00:56] Maryanne: Excellent. Thank you, Sean. Thank you so much for having me, great to be here.

[00:01:01] Sean: Pleasure is all mine. Actually, this really lights me up Maryanne getting to do this episode with you because you're going to bring such a unique set of optics as a partner and a guide to Founders in this conversation. And so, for those who don't know who you are, personally or who The Worthy Leader is, maybe I'm going to give just a little slightly more than normal a backdrop to what you do and the context in which you work with Founders, because that's really relevant to why we're having a conversation today.

[00:01:32] And so, yeah, please jump in if I get anything wrong, but you know, in short, you develop Founders and Leaders, you've been on and remain on as a director of numerous boards and organizations, you've helped two consulting firms which became market leaders. You've consulted to the Who's who, PWC, Supreme court, Microsoft, Mitsubishi, you've authored a book, The Worthy Leader, you are the board president for the Sanoa Foundation, is that the way to pronounce it?  

[00:02:01] Maryanne: That's correct. Yeah.

[00:02:04] Sean: Thank you. Which is a not-for-profit that supports some victims of human trafficking. And this is in addition to all your work with YPO, which we're going to talk about as a trusted facilitator, and therefore sort of confident to Founders of large organisations.

[00:02:20] We met through YPO. And so, for those who haven't heard of YPO, you may have heard, it mentioned by a few different guests or myself in the previous episodes. If you haven't, it stands for Young President's Organisation. It's a global community of about 30,000 CEOs, mostly Owners or Founders and professional CEOs.

[00:02:38] I sort of hide guns if you like. It's in 142 countries, combined revenue of the companies that these CEOs lead is $9 trillion that they collectively employ 22 million people. And it’s organised in chapters. And each of those chapters brings together a community of like-minded peers, provides events and trips and opportunities to connect and also to share deeply about challenges and goals and ambitions that founders have in the context of themselves, their family and their business. With other people who understand and other people who've gone through or will go through, similar things, because it's pretty lonely at the top.  

[00:03:16] Maryanne: yeah.

[00:03:16] Sean: They don't always have lots of people to chat to and I joined YPO about four years ago. And I'm often taking a bit of a sabbatical this year because I'm doing a few other things rather than running larger organisations. There's a consistent theme from Founders on this podcast, and they include that you need to have some people to bounce stuff off. You need to have people that you can confide in, troubleshoot with, get support from, so that might be advisors, that might be mentors, but having a peer group is really critical.

[00:03:48] And in Australia, some of the notable organisations would include YPO, who we're talking about, entrepreneurs organisation, CEO club, CUB – Cub of United Business, the list goes on. And for Founders who have companies north of a million dollars in revenue, there's lots of options. And a lot of those organisations deal with founders in the one to 20 mil of a revenue range. Then of course, that you've got, business women's network. You've got Queensland leaders. You've got all these different organisations. North of maybe $20 million of revenue up to billions, YPO is really probably the global leader in that space.

[00:04:28] And you and I met back in 2019, because you facilitated a workshop with my YPO forum. A forum is six to eight I like-minded CEOs, and we were newly formed, and you asked us some really challenging questions and I was relatively new to YPO and I was thinking. Wow, who is this person who has got this unbelievable privilege. Because these forums of sanctuaries, right? You know, they are like, who else gets invited into a room with eight CEOs who you are running anywhere from…I think in that room, we had anywhere from 20 million of revenue to 700 million revenue and you have complete confidentiality and trust of those individuals, you get to see and hear these stories about how they've scaled, how they're tackling stuff from a business perspective.

[00:05:15] But also the real human stuff, those that are having families maybe in some kind of crisis, because I know maybe they… I'm not talking about my forum. I'm just talking about forums in general, these places you get invited into where they might have, families broken down because work and financial success has been pulled ahead of family or people look at successful on the outside and family is great, and businesses are awesome, but then they might drop dead by 50 because work's been put in front of their health and health has been put to the side or those that have had major business blow-ups. And whilst everybody else can see from the outside, the business blow up.

[00:05:53] What was the driver of the business blow-up. And what role did that individual play in that business? You know, did he go get in the way, you know, and what are the personal flow on consequences of those things? How they make big decisions and what's driving that decision? Is it a heart issue? Is it a mind issue? What are their intentions? And if they've got some motivation from somewhere, what happens when that motivation disappears and what if they running a company for 20 or 30 years and they build an empire and then they stop working. They've got no other interests. And actually, everybody else has been cast aside and now they're completely alone and unfulfilled because the work was all I had.

[00:06:27] And so, I'm giving, I guess people some insight because this podcast is about what it takes to scale and what Founders need to pay attention to. If they want to have sustainable success holistically, not just financially. And I'd love to chat to you today about stories depersonalised, obviously, that contain observations and learnings that you think are illustrative for Founders.

[00:06:54] So today's going to be less about probably strategy and more about the individuals running the organisations. Because I always think founders, especially, Founder, usually they may only build one or two businesses ever. And therefore, their context is very tight. They're inside the problem. They can't usually see outside the problem because that's all they know. And partners and experts and people like yourself get to see from outside the problem. And you might, they might only see one or two businesses in their time from the inside and you see tens or hundreds a year. And so, you see patterns that they can't see.

[00:07:28] You can see things that they can't see. So, I know that was a massive setup and it's by far the longest that I've ever done, but I think the context is so important for our discussion because most of our guests, while we're talking about strategy, more tactical practical things. And today, we're really talking a bit more about the human side of this.

[00:07:48] So maybe as to kick us off Maryanne, you could tell us a bit about your story, in particular, those experiences or moments in your history that led you to end up in this privileged position of a coach and facilitator and confident to Founders who scout. Can we start there?

[00:08:05] Maryanne: Sure. And Sean, as I'm listening to you, you're actually inspiring me because, it truly is, I often hear myself say, “the best job in the world” and I also hear myself repeating to forums with a very genuine, uh, emphasis on the fact that I actually do feel so honoured and privileged to be part of these conversations.

[00:08:30] And so just to be clear, I know you've emphasised this, I'm not an expert on scaling, but what I do, I do have the privilege of listening to people explore. The challenges that they're facing, the opportunities that they're facing. And as you mentioned, not just in their business, but what are the flow on effects that go into their personal and their family lives? So how did I get to be, uh, in this particular role?

[00:09:00] Sean: And sorry, just before you kick off, just to say one thing that Maryanne for the audience. This is not about YPO and it's not about forums. This is about Founders in general. And these are, anyone from the outside is going to look at the people in YPO and go; these are really successful people financially. Like these are big organisations, anywhere north of 20 mil to maybe billions. And so, you're getting to see the inside. We're just trying to unpack what is happening in minds of Founders and where some of the pictures, and what do we need to think about if we're trying to get to that sort of financial success or the business success or the business impact, but one of the things we need to be thinking about along the lines. So, sorry, over to you. Tell us a bit about your journey.  

[00:09:36] Maryanne: Sure. And probably it's important for me to talk about, it's not just Founders. I think about Founders as being entrepreneurs. I also work with CEOs of family businesses and also, professional CEO's as well. So, there's probably three groupings. And so, the point I'm trying to really make here in terms of my role, it's very much as you say about the human element and you know, quite often I even surprised myself. I'm actually not all that interested, even though I love business, because business is a creative endeavour and I love it. And, but I'm actually not interested so much in how big is your business or how important is it or any of the trappings that go along with that.

[00:10:27] I'm really interested in the central character, which is you, the CEO, where are you at in your journey? Where have you come from? What are the current challenges and opportunities that you're facing at the moment? And you know, where do you see yourself going? And of course, scale comes up. It comes up more and more in the last decade. It's something that I can't really remember in previous decades, the emphasis on scale. And I think it's very much to do with the opportunities that globalisation, this incredible global village that we now live in. It's almost like it's there for the taking, right? It's a bit like Edmund Hillary saying in response to the question, well, why did you want to climb Mount Everest because it's there. And I think it's the same for CEO, it’s almost becoming an automatic strategy to some extent.  

[00:11:31] Sean: It's like the default.

[00:11:32] Maryanne: That's right. Exactly. With the spoils that are on offer potentially. So, I think it's even become more critical in terms of the role that I can play, which is really asking people to have a deeper conversation with themselves within a small group setting around what does this decision to scale to grow or not mean for me? What's its significance? What's this business about for me?

[00:12:04] Sean: I love that comment because it's very easy to attach yourself to your point to the spoils and the trappings. And it's going to give me X, Y, and Z, but I always ask Founders, well, what role do you actually want to be playing? Like what gives you energy and what takes energy away from you? Because an IPO, for example, as a potential exit option might sound wonderful, but do you actually want to run a public? Have you considered what that means? If you know, because the investors are going to want to know that the person who built the business stays on for pretty material amount of time, if they can back it with public money. And, do you want to be the CEO of a public company? I mean, it's a very different kind of gig to probably how you built the business in the first place. And some people love it and some people absolutely hate it and it doesn't have to be the outcome. You know what I mean?

[00:12:57] Maryanne: Yes. And, actually I can say I'm thinking of two clients at the moment and just repeating, I’m obviously de-identifying people, but you know, one client I'm thinking about Michelle and she was or is an entrepreneur. And although she came very much from a business background from a family business background and she was in corporate software and she really went down this automatic path of growing big and bigger and bigger, but really what her goal was, her unstated goal for quite a long time was to float, was IPO to go in that direction. And it was unquestioned that that's what she wanted to do. And I can remember one particular conversation when she was sharing this as this was her vision and for the next couple of years to get to the company to that point. And as you well would know, Sean, that's no small feat to get to a company to that point. And so of course the conversation within her group was around, you know, what's that going to take and how you're going to do that and really focusing on the what and the how, but yeah, really linking back to the kind of questions that you are asking. I can remember just asking Michelle to reflect, what did this actually mean to her, why was it so important? And because it was just such a given just the way she was putting it out there, this is what I'm going for. And as it turns out, it was what her father had done in his business world. And it was one of these situations where I'm really seeking approval. I'm wanting to prove myself and that's okay. But she kind of did connect with that, that that was her reality, but still went on and pushed ahead. And I can tell you, Michelle is a very, very unhappy. CEO. And in a meeting I had with her earlier this year, that the word that came up is, ‘I feel trapped.’ Because here is this person, this wonderful creative. And in fact, you know, regionally was designing the software that the business was a built around. And she feels a very, very constrained by all the kind of governance, requirements. And she's no longer that free spirit but, you know, she achieved her goal, but she didn't ever take the time out to truly ask herself why. And what's that going to mean for me? What's the significance of this for me? And  when we get to a place of achievement and success and gosh, I could go on and on about so many CEOs get to a point, you know, the pinnacle and the question that can often come up is well, this is it and there can be a hollowness there if you haven't actually connected with, why am I doing this? Is this something that truly nourishes me and gives me purpose?

[00:16:37] Sean: If we take a step back to Michelle, it's such an interesting example. I know many CEOs or Founders, more so Founders who are seeing IPO as a potential exit, you know, maybe that's because there's a market dynamic, they see that as a great way to monetise the effort they've put in so far.

[00:16:59] So, in Michelle's case, you know, if I think about Founders that tend to be very good at evaluating alternatives on strategy to achieve a particular outcome. Like how we want to get to that outcome or that number, or that market or whatever. Let's think of all the different ways we can get there. But to your point, how much time is being, and this is the problem when you're at the top, who's having a hard conversation with you about, like who's trusted enough in your world to say; but why are you doing that? Are there alternatives? Is there another way if you really pull it back, is it because, is it a cash flow driver?

[00:17:40] Is it an ego driver? Like what is that? Is it because you interested in learning about what that experience is like? Is it a professional development, personal growth thing? Like what is actually, and it's a hard question to answer, but it matters so much because if you think about the consequences of making the assumption that that's the course and then ending up in that role. And then to your point, all of the personal consequences that come now, everybody has that expectation. When you use that to your point, she's feeling trapped. She's not getting what she clearly needed at an, at another level in terms of what she wanted from her business and how she wants to be spending a time. And now she's probably spending 30% in a typical public CEO role, probably 30% of your time minimum with the shareholders, lots of reporting, incredible amounts scrutiny, having to report to the market on every small thing that happens that could impact the share price. And it's just a different job. It's a different job. It's still got the opportunity for creativity, but it's more constrained. It's just a very different nature of beast. This applies just as much with smaller companies. And I personally mentor, you know, a small cohort of sort of select Founders and many who are still sub 10, 15 million. And we ended up in lots of conversations around exit optionality, and they're trying to maximise that set of options for exit, but we spend a huge amount of time talking about the personal drivers because from my perspective, do you need to exit at all? Let's start with that. Okay. If actually, would you be just as happy installing management being at remaining a director of the company and just taking dividends on an ongoing basis for who knows what the indefinite period of time is, but actually just interesting the management to somebody else that you're willing to back and remunerate appropriately. Would you be just as happy with that outcome versus an exit? Because let's just say it's a sale. Great. You know, I've seen some serious post-sale regret.  

[00:19:51] Maryanne: Yes.

[00:19:52] Sean: Like, okay I got an exit. It's like, there's a badge of honour. I got an exit and I can talk about the fact that I've exited, you know, I did this company and we exited after three years and we've got blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Great. Okay.  

[00:20:04] Maryanne: Now what?

[00:20:05] Sean: And then, so is that it, reflectively, was that the right decision? Because if you think about even just what an exit means, it means you're also, you're monetising what the future cash flows and the value of the business is, but now it's somebody else's. And if this was a golden goose that was laying eggs, did you need an exit and to your point, what was driving?

[00:20:24] Maryanne: Yes. And I said, you're making me appreciate the fact Sean on that. And clearly you do this in the role that you play as a mentor is I think the reason people don't pause and reflect and ask, or even answer some of these more challenging questions is because it takes them into the unknown. You know, it's one thing when we strategize about, okay, what are the options?

[00:20:52] What are the risks of the business? What are the opportunities? But this really takes us into the realm of the unknown, isn't it? And we have to step into uncertainty and sit there, sit with ourselves and that can be uncomfortable for people rather than; let me stick with this notion that I've had, that it's always a good idea to build and sell or whatever the desire is.

[00:21:19] Sean: Well, and so, in your experience, let's just say that you have got…if you had your time again with Michelle. What conversation would you have had with Michelle that you think would have direct enough or had driven enough insight that she may have reconsidered or considered more deeply what she truly wanted.

[00:21:43] Because you said she kind of called it out and she knew what it was about, but then she still did it anyway. It might be because it was a sunk cost eye, you know, well, I'm already on the path and I've already got this far and it's not that far ahead. And so, I probably just need to carry on, even though I haven't truly thought through the consequence because now she's unhappy. Right? Is there anything that you think you could have done in hindsight that would’ve had her maybe look at alternatives and still got what she wanted. But also what she wanted for herself, not just from a business perspective.  

[00:22:09] Maryanne: Yes, that's a great question and it's not my role to advise, but certainly to walk alongside people and to invite them to let's to sit down here by the path here and take a moment and, and pay attention is really what you're saying. How could I more effectively get people, you know, someone like Michelle to pay attention.

[00:22:38] What’s stirring inside you, Michelle, what are the questions that might be coming up? And I'm thinking about another CEO where I think I did that. And often it's because that individual is ready to actually to hear the question more clearly. It's the right time. We can all hear a question at a particular time and it doesn't land, but I'm thinking about Brad and Brad was super, super excited about taking his retail business global. And the USA was his next huge market. And he invited his peer group to the annual meeting. And he gave them all notice that he really wanted to “pick their brain” to get their input into his strategy. He'd worked out his strategy to scale. And so, we sat down and I'm sure you would appreciate if you get a group of business people around and you put up the numbers, it was an Excel spreadsheet presentation, and we were looking at cash flows and ROI and P&L's and business people. They were a woman actually in that particular group as start salivating, you know, it's like moths to a candle and you know, so this is the thing about certainty because those numbers look real. And so, everyone was engaged in, and it was a very stimulating conversation around what could be. And there was an excitement in the room and you know, Brad's business was a real success story, but there was a moment where I just… and this is the thing, if we can just get people to pause where I asked Brad, if he'd be prepared to turn off the PowerPoint. And we actually just even shifted and sat around in a circle basically, got up, got away from the boardroom table. And I said, Brad, I've got one question for you. And it was a brilliant, thoughtful presentation, but this decision to go into the big market to scale up, is this a head or a hard decision. I think we've heard, what your head is telling you, and I'm inviting you to share with us what's in your heart. How are you feeling about this and what emerged? Just to cut a long story short, was this incredible conversation where Brad shared his story, where he'd come from Vietnam as a refugee, a boat person and with his grandparents and parents and your typical story of incredible industriousness and working up from nothing. And he was so fuelled beyond doing what he loved, that you know, his true passion and desire was security for his family.

[00:26:09] And so what later came out as the conversation and the story unfolded that his marriage, a bit like what you were saying in your intro was in serious trouble. He was never home. He was always on a plane. He was so driven by this desire to build something that was almost indestructible. Okay. He was going to build the big war ship, when I think about that little boat that he came out, this was an indestructible warship that he was building that would keep his family and future generations safe forever. And the reality is that, six months later he had very serious health issues. But you know, we've had several conversations since then. And it was that moment. It was just the right time for someone to ask him what was in his heart. And he was able to connect with what really was driving him at a much, much deeper level, which was really basically a huge fear and anxiety around you're not having enough, not being able to provide for his family. There you go.

[00:27:32] Sean: And what was the implication of that realisation for him.

[00:27:35] Maryanne: He didn't go to the US. No, he didn't.

[00:27:39] Sean: And, because why?  

[00:27:41] Maryanne: Because he never, I mean, I know it sounds unbelievable. And you said at the beginning, when you're not in the forest, right. When you haven't got your nose up on the bark, it's so much clearer, right? You have the perspective. Believe it or not, he had never made the connection. I mean, he had at some superficial level that it was important to work hard and to make his parents proud and to almost pay them back for them sacrificing a lot to pay for his schooling, et cetera. But he'd never made that connection at the deepest level, which is really around what was fuelling him, was it wasn't passion for his business. It was a deep, deep insecurity around failure, poverty, basically. And he was sacrificing everything, his health, his family, and it really made him stop and step back. And I really appreciate that he'd actually created something pretty amazing and that he wanted just to appreciate that for a while and who knows, he may later on, I don't know whether he may take that path, but hopefully from a much more centred calm place.  

[00:29:13] Sean: Maybe for different reasons. Well, geez. There's so much to unpack that. So, one of the thing… if we just talk about, because that is such a common thread, the I'm doing it for my family and my first question is, have you asked them what they want?  

[00:29:36] Maryanne: I love that.

[00:29:37] Sean: So, I'm doing this, I'm doing for my wife and my children, protect us and give us everything we need and all the rest. And you go, okay, have you asked your wife what she would like from you? Because I think that there were a lot of people that will be amazed, their partner would say, I just want to see you more.  

[00:29:57] Maryanne: Yes.

[00:29:58] Sean: I just want you to be here. Actually, I didn't care for the caravan, you know, do not share the drive and the fear that you have because actually I married you or you know we’re together, because I love you, not because I really could care less about how much money we have, but in the absence of conversations like that, people can run really hard, fooling themselves as to what the real motivation is, and end up costing them exactly what it is they said they were doing in the first place. So, they get the exit, they turned around and they go, look, honey, look what I've done. And the partner guys, it's just crickets. Why? Because they not there anymore because their relationships falling apart along the way. Why? Because the person is not present in the relationship, that's not what relationships are about as I'm not casting aspersion on whether it's a good or a bad motivation. The question is, is this an aligned sort of both parties going to get what they want and are they aligned on the driver as to what it's going to take and have also thought about the consequences?

[00:31:11] I remember, I think it was Brian Tracy or someone like that a long time ago. I could be getting the reference wrong, but who said, there's only a few steps to figuring out what you want. And I'll never forget the first two, the first one is to decide what you want, which is usually the hardest part of all of it, right? Because you really have to think about what you actually want and what it looks like. The second question has to be, what is the cost of getting there? What will you have to give up? Because it's not going to come free. It's not going to come easy. It's not going to come without some kind of sacrifice, what is going to be the cost to you to achieve that?

[00:31:46] And then three, are you willing to sign up for that cost? And I just go, you can easily fool yourself on that conversation but it's like to get to that goal, if the cost is going to end up being health or family or friends, and you may not know a hundred percent, that that's definitely the cost, but all of a sudden you find yourself going wow, when was the last time I did something that actually filled me with joy or filled my partner with joy, or saw my friends that I've cared so much about, you know, and is that creating a cost in the long-term that I'm willing to sacrifice to achieve this goal? And maybe yes, and maybe no.

[00:32:22] Maryanne: Yes. And I think COVID has certainly provided another context here in that I've had so many, both female and male CEOs make that very comment that; Wow, my family are really pleased to have me around and I've had dinner every night with my family this week. This is unheard of, working from home has opened up this kind of new realisation.

[00:32:49] And I love what you're saying because we don't actually often sit down, whether it's with a business partner or a life partner or our kids and say, look, here's the deal, it's going to cost me my health, you won't get to see me, but you'll get to go to great schools or whatever, maybe there'll be some benefits down the track, et cetera. And I'll set you up with your children's welfare in mind as well. But here's the cost, so we all in? And no one to be fair, who starts a business ever from the beginning appreciates how hard it is. No one gets it. No one from the outside ever understands. That's why I get so annoyed when people look at people who have been successful in business and say they're lucky or it's so hard. It can be such a buzz to grow and scale a business, but it's incredibly difficult. And you're absolutely right. What is the cost? And the other point, Sean is sadly, I've met many, many people who are actually willing to pay those costs. Yeah. They are, and they are and it’s a self-sacrificial element that often comes in. So, whereas I think, what we're both really talking about here is that the road that's right ahead in front of me, this kind of Mount Everest, it's not necessarily the right or the only road. And so, I can only benefit by pausing and reflecting and paying attention to what's actually, if I do go down the road of scaling, what actually will help me and the business and everyone involved have a joyful ride. What are the ingredients that are actually going to help that?

[00:35:00] Sean: I remember, when I first did my training in your linguistics many moons ago, one of the tools that I thought was awesome was, that immediately after setting a goal, you would do an ecology check. And I probably will get some of the ingredients wrong, but the ecology share was great. You set this goal. It's really well formed, it's smart format or whatever, whatever sort of model you want to use, but it's really clear. It's measurable. It's tangible. It's time-bound yada, yada, yada. Great. Step two is, let's do an ecology check. What are the consequences positively and negatively for all these other areas of your life as a result of achieving that outcome, family, friends, social, health, career, like you go through every sort of area of your life and go, okay. Because there is going to be positive and negative consequences, probably every single one. And to your point, if you can do the ecology check and get, you know what, I can say this is actually pretty much all positive consequences for all these areas. Cool. Or I might be willing to sacrifice some areas, but if you don't do the thinking and you just assume that that's the path and you think about all the positive consequences that come from getting to the end of the goal, which we're all very good at. But you don't take a step back and think about the negative ones you can end up on a path with lots of catastrophe along the way that you haven't really thought about, and you get to the end of that road, you turn around, you go look, everybody look what I did, and can't wait to spend more time with you and have all this money and time. And it's like, crickets! Family is gone. Partner is gone. Kids not interested, because you don't have a relationship with them anymore. Health is in tatters. And to your point, you said, you know, a lot of people get to that point and go like this is not what I imagined. I was imagining like fanfare and confetti and it's amazing. And that happens for an instant. And then you get to the next day and you go, what does that mean for me? Who am I now? What do I spend my time on? Who do I spend it with? Yeah. So, I'm conscious that we spent a fair bit of time there on brand. So, if you were to summarize this from Michelle and Brad stories, what would be the take-outs, either key questions that you would want Founders to think about from those two stories as a takeaway?  

[00:37:11] Maryanne: One thing that I haven't mentioned, I am thinking about another client, Paul, who… actually what he's done. If we think about what I've basically said is reflect and really detach from my ego. That's right. I think you mentioned that before, what's the real driver here, but I think there's another really important part of this, which is aligning in what is the purpose of the business? What are the values? What are the leadership behaviours that we're wanting to scale up. Because if we don't actually build a prototype, a really healthy prototype in terms of the business, what's the point of scaling something unhealthy? And so if I think about a client of mine, Paul, who has gone down this very track of building the business in Australia and now embarked on a huge kind of global expansion. I just look at him and with delight really, because what I can see is he's very clear, strong emphasis on that we're not scaling and doing something different. We are rolling out our essence, our culture, what we believe in, how we do business, our deepest values. We are staying connected with our purpose as we roll out. And I really think that clarity, that alignment around, the deepest essence, the purpose of the business is what pays off.  

[00:38:59] Sean: I love that. So, if you connect those three stories so far just to summarize what I'm hearing, when we think about Michelle, what Michelle might not have done that Founders might want to be thinking about is gone to the end of the…she's assumed a path, she got a goal, spend some time thinking about, what's driving me and also what's life going to look like at the end of that goal. And is that what I want, first of all, like, let's make sure my, really clearly understand why I'm doing it, what's driving it and what life's going to be like on the other side. Second one, for Brad is; okay, let's do it a bit of an ecology check if I can get comfortable with the first part, which is, yeah, okay, that is a good strategy. I'm comfortable with what's at the end of that. And I'm excited about it. And I feel like my driver is positive and there's no sort of negative consequences. What happens along the way? What are the consequences? What are the costs? Am I willing to pay those costs? What could go wrong? Do I have alignment around me in terms of; yeah, I've thought about the ecology of it.

[00:40:01] And the third one is saying; okay, great. If you can get through those first two tests, let's think about the business and the structure. This is actually kind of goes back to your point, the purpose of the business, the ingredients of the business, the heart of business and what kind of, is this organisation going to have real and positive impact in the world? And is it going to be a…are they going to be positive consequences for the people who are in the busy, because they're actually, they're engaged. They're doing good. The values are strong that you know, the alignment of the business model will help you fulfill the potential, but it's also creating good things along the way.

[00:40:40] And if those elements are in check, then scaling is a good thing, right? Because you are hopefully having some real positive impact in the world. You've got a great culture that's really empowering and engaging people so they feel motivated by it. You can have a better team, you can have less sort of strategic wondering around, it makes the job easier, but it also creates better outcomes on the way. Is there something in that third story that I've kind of missed in the thinking around it in the summary?

[00:41:07] Maryanne: No. That's exactly right. But before I comment on that, I want to add one thing about Michelle in that what really was missing for her. And it probably applies to all three to some extent is the importance of knowing yourself. You know, she was really casting herself in her father's shadow in that I'm like my dad and in fact she was very, very different to her father.

[00:41:31] And so, knowing myself means that I can trust myself so that I can trust the business, others can trust my me and the business as it grows and expands. And you know, the third thing there about going global and being connected with the heart. I love that of the business is you really are expanding positive impact of the business throughout the world. And that can only be a great thing if we get all these ingredients right.

[00:42:05] Sean: Yeah. I love that. And I would say that, it just raised in my mind, another guest who by the time this episode is published, may or may not have already been published, but a founder called Owen Franklin, who is in the States and has built this incredible e-commerce company around sort of third party sales on Amazon and essentially offers products. It’s like envelopes and pins and, stuff that you're going to go, wow, that's pretty unexciting. Like I got, you've sold somebody a folder or whatever, but when you hear him talk about his business and the positive consequences or the way they think about the network and the system, and that actually the goal of the entire business is to make everybody's lives better in that chain, their suppliers, their team, their customers, and actually. And you go, you can imagine being in this business and going, wow, this is such a cool place to work. I might be selling some pretty boring looking products, but the heartbeat of this thing is exciting and wonderful and creating really amazing things in the world.

[00:43:10] Maryanne: Yes, it lead first with purpose, right?

[00:43:15] Sean: Hmm. I think that there's an expectation as well now. Like people, you know, this is not the era anymore where people are just so thankful to have a job and we'll continue to; okay, yes, in some places. Sure. And you know, some levels of organisations and some levels of roles and some economies, no, question, but there is clearly a huge shift in the last 10 to 15 years to people expecting to work in a business that has heart and body in it.  

[00:43:39] Maryanne: That's right. Yeah.  

[00:43:41] Sean: It’s far more of a minimum expectation than like, oh, that will be amazing.

[00:43:43] Maryanne: Yes, that's right. And people love to be part of something meaningful. Right? It gives us meaning. Absolutely. And, so, I was just going to say, in terms of scaling, you know, if that is meaningful and if it's all aligned in a really positive way, then bigger is better, right?

[00:44:08] Sean: One thing I want to just draw a little bow around was one of the…when you're unpacking those pieces around motivation, I always have found the concept of toward and away from motivation, really critical in understanding what's like, because I ended up having this conversation with Founders because I'm interested in the impact of what's motivating them on what's going to happen when the motivation is achieved. So, what do I mean by that? Away from motivation, which we're all very good at, and it's what we naturally, we will move away from pain of course, very quickly, put the hand on the stove, you'll change behaviours pretty quickly. You won't do it too many times.

[00:44:47] The desire, for example, to no longer be poor, well or no longer be fat or no longer be something, that can create excellent short-term motivation. Like your move fast, you'll change lots of things. You'll tackle lots of stuff. But the question is what happens to the motivation when you're just far enough away, you no longer feel poor, or you no longer feel fat or overweight or you no longer feel unhealthy.

[00:45:17] Like you're far enough away from the pain of it. And what happens to the motivation? And you see this in yo-yo everything, yo-yo with money or with health, with everything. The motivation disappears. And as humans, we need to be motivated by something. And if you haven't replaced that away motivation with something that's actually really compelling and exciting and pulling you towards something, you will recreate that pain or a different kind of pain so that you have some motivation to do something.

[00:45:42] And so, the reason I'm asking the question to Founders is what's driving you, because I'm thinking what happens if they get to those minimum expectations, they've moved far in her life, enough away from pain after four years or three years or five years. And then all of a sudden, the business starts to crumble because unconsciously, they start self-sabotaging the model, the process or something to recreate some motivation, but actually it's everybody else who feels the consequences of that even more so than the Founder.

[00:46:10] So it's finding that balance. Nothing wrong with having pain oriented or away from motivation, but at some point you don't shift it towards motivation and have a really clear aligned purposeful driver about what that is that you want, long-term motivation.  

[00:46:25] Maryanne: Yes. And rather than motivation, I suspect what we're talking about that at a different question is what nourishes me. And I think that leads to that deeper reflection that I'm talking about. And because you're exactly right when people arrive or get close to the holy grail, they repeatedly, you know, what I hear about is a sense of emptiness or hollowness and, or alternatively, I'm never there. I'm never far enough away from poverty or I'm never proving myself to my father enough. So, know what's actually nourishing me.

[00:47:11] Sean: Wow. Well, Maryanne, I could talk to you all day long. We would have such rich conversations, you and I, but I'm conscious that we're sort of at the end of our time, I think we've done a good job of wrapping up some of the takeaways for Founders. And I really hope the community has found this valuable today because these are some of the hard questions. And you may or may not have people in your network today, or friends or family who are going to ask you these, who can give it to you in a way that you can hear. And to your point, you might need to hear it differently from another person or another few times, or in the right moment. But if you don't ask those questions and you don't deeply reflect on some of these issues, the wheels can come off. Or the consequences can be great. And you know, all the financial success in the world, or business success in the world leaves you with this feeling of emptiness and loneliness and significant negative consequences. So, I think they're just critical. It's a critical conversation to have a founders and CEOs really reflect on these things to make sure that all that and they ingredients absolutely can line up. So, we're not saying this is the biggest problem that everyone has all the time and no one ever solves that, it's like, no, no, it absolutely, these ingredients can line up, but the thinking really helps.  

[00:48:24] Maryanne: Yes. And it's having the courage, Sean, to step into the unknown, to have the conversation, to listen to yourself. That's most important.

[00:48:34] Sean: Beautiful. Maryanne. How can people get in touch with you or follow along with what you're doing? If I want to hear more about Maryanne or the worthy later?  

[00:48:44] Maryanne: Oh, okay. So, I do have a website which is Worthyleader.net or anyone can email me at [email protected]. Love to continue the conversation and thank you, Sean for today's conversation.

[00:49:00] Sean: My pleasure. Maryanne, it has been wonderful. Folks, I hope you enjoyed the show today. Huge, thanks to Maryanne. A couple of things before you go. Of course, if you got value from today, please tell a few people about it or write it on Apple Podcasts or something that just help the algorithms help it get in front of other people, which is great because then other people get to get exposed to the great ideas.

[00:49:19] You're welcome to jump out of the ScaleUps podcasts website. You get full transcriptions there, or jump on YouTube. You'll get to watch Maryanne and I in action on the full video version. And of course you can jump on the socials where at @scaleupspodcast on all your favourite socials. But remember that. at the core of it. In addition to the alignment that we've talked about around this entire heart-mind goals, consequences, piece of work, the most important thing is that you don't give up in the process. Because the thing that guarantees that you will not achieve, these are tough things to tussle with. But let's assume that you can overcome those. You just kind of give up when it gets hard, you just got to stay on unshakable, but with the fight then, and turn to somebody beside you. And if you need some help, then reach out for help, whether it's a peer or a mentor or a coach or a facilitator, but stay connected to the opportunity, but just don't give up in the process.

[00:50:12] You've been even listening to the ScaleUps Podcast. I am Sean Steele. And I look forward to speaking with you again next week. Thanks so much, Maryanne. Really appreciate you coming on.

[00:50:18] Maryanne: Thank you, Sean.  

[00:50:21] Sean: Pleasure.