Podcast Transcript

[00:01:19] Sean: G’day everyone and welcome to the ScaleUps Podcast where we help first-time Founders learn the secrets of scaling so they can fulfill the potential of the business and create bigger impact in the world and make bigger decisions with greater confidence. I'm your host, Sean Steele. And I'm joined today by Marc Meili. And I've just discovered Marc, that your last name means "Beautiful” in China. That's quite impressive as the last name. I don't think I've got any such antidotes for Steele. I'm pretty sure it just made Steele.

[00:01:54] Marc: Well, at least I’ve got something going for me then.  

[00:01:56] Sean: But great start, points on the board. And Marc is the Managing Director of Protech Group and Cernova. How are you today, Marc? You good?

[00:02:06] Marc: Yes. Yeah. Thanks Sean. Thanks for having me today. So, I'm actually looking forward to having a chat with you as a first-time podcast for me. So, yeah, surprises me.  

[00:02:17] Sean: Mate, well that surprises me. I mean, you and I have actually known each other for probably four years, I'd say something like that now, we went through YPO in Queensland and I actually had no idea that your business was as large as it was. And so, I think in our last conversation around the business, I was staggered. So, I'm also staggered that this is your first podcast. But welcome and we've always had some great conversations. And I really look forward to, even though your business is probably much larger than many of our audience, you've been on this journey from the start and you've got a lot of learnings from a lot of different stages in the growth of your company. And some really fascinating ones I know that will be relevant to anyone who's listening at any level as they're going through this process. So, maybe for those who aren't familiar with Protech Group, you kicked off in 2006 and you are a technically specialised workforce solutions partner. Is that the right way to explain it?

[00:03:15] Marc: Yeah. So, essentially a staffing firm. We provide on-hire labour into projects, some of that labour is permanent employed by us, some of that labour is on the casual basis. It varies on assignments, but essentially, yes, we focus on technical industries, and we're on an on-demand skill capability/organization and provide the skills and the capacity to organisation delivering products.  

[00:03:44] Sean: And so, what's the technical industry from the way that you sort of describe it internally?

[00:03:48] Marc: Anything technical, I suppose, anything where things are getting built, and that's the building construction industry, civil construction industry, it's a mining industry, it's engineering, electrical, wherever things are getting built or things are moving parts and all that. So that's what we classify as technical industries.  

[00:04:10] Sean: Yeah. Wow. And so, the business now, Marc, can you just share with the audience, like what's the size of the business this year? Where do you think you'll finish this year in terms of sort of revenue and employee size?

[00:04:24] Marc: Yeah. So, this year, actually staggers me sometimes myself. So, we employ over 4,000 people in that casual permanent capacity across the nation. We have 25 location where we operate from and then deploy and manage our people and mobilise them and support them in the process. We’re only Australia-based. So that was a decision I made deliberate at one point, in the trajectory of the company. So, we touching on 400 million in revenue and we'll be writing a 500 million budget next financial year. So, we’re seeing a big boost again over the last couple of years.  

[00:05:16] Sean: That's incredible. I would love for you to come back to that decision. I'd like to give you a bit of a story about the genesis of the business to start with, but I'd really like to come back to your strategic decision also to stay in Australia because I'm sure there's lots of businesses when they're scaling up, who were thinking about how am I going to get, how am I going to continue these growth rates and is this market too small? And you've obviously made some big decisions there. So, let's come back to that. Can you take me back to 2006? What led you to start the business in the first place?

[00:05:45] Marc: 2006. Look, I was working for an organisation at the time. And I was very privileged because I was running someone else's business, I had a full responsibility and no accountability in that context, and that was really very enjoyable for me, and I'm still very grateful for that experience that I was given at the time and the trust I suppose that I received. But I think one thing led to the other, the owners ultimately wanted to come back into the business after a period of time and actually be involved in the business. And at that point I thought; well, this is great. I really want to do my own thing. And I finished an MBA at the time as well, and I was sort of had a concentration in entrepreneurship and I'm not chose to go my own path and go into recruitment. And why into recruitment or workforce provision needs? I thought, I don’t know much, but I know much about people in various different industries in diverse environments. I've had the privilege to work in various parts in the world, been privy to different cultures and different work experiences. And I saw that, I guess the managerial requirements were all the same. It was about the quality of the people they have in their business, and that ultimately makes them strive, and I was no different. And at the time I was on the receiving end of those services in the recruitment space, also in the workforce management space, and I had a mission to deliver, and I wasn't really receiving the support at the time that was too much standard. And that's where I saw the opportunity. I'd never done this before, which is a little bit wild. But I knew you had the business acronym and I knew what's required in the industry to deliver those outcomes. So, I literally started from day one with a laptop in actually the company I was leading there at the time. And I started off in the broom chamber and we kind of did a counter deal for six months where I was able to establish myself and sponge off the organisation to get myself going and after six months we are a team of five and then we moved out and started our own journey. So, it's very fond memories of that early part.  

[00:08:20] Sean: The funny thing is, you talk about it like it's a really long time ago, but in the context of building a business, this was 16 years ago and you've now got 4,000 employees, which is staggering. Some of the things that we touched on in our chat the other day was one of the things I really want to dig into was how you thought about differentiation in this market. And you talked to me about your approach to your brand promise around providing quality on demand, but doing it every time. And this is a really challenging proposition for many services/businesses, that may be in an industry where they're actually finding it pretty hard to differentiate. And somebody says; well, why don't you differentiate on quality? And they kind of like; well, doesn't everybody do quality. Like, how do you do that differently in a defendable way that actually becomes something that people would actually attach your brand to, because it's a big call, right? To be able to deliver that every time, if you don't do it delivery time, it's not going to become part of your brand. Can you just tell me about that? Because it sounded like that was something relatively early in your thinking that's really shaped the future of the company.

[00:09:33] Marc: Yes. Definitely, and the quality of the people was my key issue as on the receiving end I suppose. And no matter what you receive from a service provider, if the quality of the work or the product is not up to standard to what the client expects and they're required to do their work or enjoyment of whatever it is, ultimately that you won't receive a repeat purchase. So, really it was quite simple to making sure, in principle, it was simple and the brand promise, delivering quality people and quality people every time was from day one. The part that wasn't so simple was how'd you do that in a most reliable and repeatable way in a larger scale, because that was from day one in my head, I was never going to have, I call it a “lifestyle business”. It's a big decision in that. Either you build a lifestyle business where you build a business that creates your certain income, you have certain freedoms around it, or you build a growth business and that's a different choice. So now I was always going to build a growth business because I know myself that I want to learn, continue to grow myself, and in order to do so, I had to have a growth business and I would be bored with a life style business where I play golf twice a week or whatever it is. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's a deliberate choice for people to make. So, in a growth business, everything was thinking of was all right, what do I need to do to make this scalable? Because ultimately, to grow a business, it's two things. There's a formula how to make a buck, I suppose, A plus B equals C or whatever. And is it scalable? And if it's scalable, then everything else can be engineered around it. So, my background is engineering and manufacturing. And for years I've been working on better, faster, cheaper, and essentially building process to deliver a predictable outcome. So after, I guess I've taken that mindset into the recruitment industry and said; well, I need to build process to make sure that quality people, every time it's a short and we have done this in initial foundations, then over the years we have refined it. And to our own detriment in a way, because it's very difficult for someone to gain employment with us these days because of the hurdles they have to go through. But saying that, we have proven through that process and being very rigorous with a very long-term view about things rather than quick wins, that long-term, we want to build a reputation of an organisation that delivers the quality of service and the quality of people to their operations. So, I was very clear on that and I knew that it was a longer road. I knew it was a harder road, and I needed to convince the people around me that this is the right thing to do. And look, you know, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but because you do feel or follow your gut sometimes in business. But that's what our organisation is known for. We are known for a quality organisation and it is part of our success. No doubt about it, because the reliability of the services and the delivery we have, they can count on and then know it's differentiated from the others.

[00:13:07] Sean: Are you able to share Marc, I don’t want to give away any trade secrets, but are you able to share any examples of how that turns up in practice, like, you know, how other people might recruit? Because you're having to recruit on a large scale on a constant basis. And so, people, of course, in the current environment of going, jeez, I'm finding it hard enough to get a couple of applications for key jobs. And so, I know this is a bit of a unique labour market and you would have seen a whole bunch of different sort of labour markets over 16 years, but what are some practical examples how you actually do that differently where other people would have given up by then or not gone to that level, or, you know not putting that level of effort to get that person?

[00:13:45] Marc: Yeah, look, we do things differently and it cost more. And I think that's the key point. There is a tension of doing a good, and then you need to align that good job with the right marketing in order to obtain better returns from your clients in that sense, we are more expensive than our competitors in some ways. But yeah, there's some tangible with stuff and we're talking about people here. Right? So, I'm happy to share a couple of things. So, years ago we implemented very in the early days before the corporates even mandated this, but we implemented drug testing, and we trained our people and certified our people to do drug testing in our offices. And the reasonable I did that because the statistics were clear that users or of drugs or ongoing uses of drugs or people who use drugs often. There's a quality issue in a sense, there were statistics about the safety, behaviour of those people and the incidents rate, but there was also the statistic of reliable around the people. And in my brand, I wanted the most reliable and the most safe people. So for me, it was a no brainer, I put this into place and absolutely we screen out a lot of people, and especially even more back in the early days, because the corporates around us, they were just discovering that themselves, but I always stayed the course and it was an investment we made. And again, it's sometimes very un-tangible to go; oh, we do this, and this is that. It's the belief in the brand. It's the belief in the system. It's a belief in the direction forward. That was one cornerstone. So, because that's a behavioural check, also, people choose to do whatever to do, and I'm not here to criticise what they do, but into world of work, that's a choice you make. And you either make that choice or that choice and you want the people to make that choice. That was one element. We have other elements in our offices where we actually, we assess physical capacity of people. So we have medicinal screens where we make sure that people don't have pre-existing condition and then we put them into jobs that will aggravate those pre-existing conditions. So again, it's a protection factor for the people themselves, but for ourselves as well, that we're not putting someone in a position that they might aggravate a shell that has an issue and so forth. And that doesn't necessarily mean de-select, but it means redeploy into a different profession or different kinds of work. So, we made sure that this gets assessed physically. And look over the years, things evolved and, our latest addition to that is the subconscious. So, we assess behaviours in terms of interviewing and all that sort of stuff. We assess the psychical elements of the people and the new things over the last 12 months, we have implemented a fully across the organisation is the brain, how we behave unconsciously, and how our mental resilience is to the workplace. So, there's a number of things, but there's 10 elements we do. And that's what I mentioned before. It's really hard to get a job with us.

[00:17:13] Sean: Yeah.

[00:17:13] Marc: But we do know again, we do know that the people who join us in the end, after the evaluation, they're the people we want to have on the bus. And they're the people that we want to represent our brand and work with us.

[00:17:27] Sean: I think people in the I.T Sector would be… they'd be like, oh, well, that's pretty normally. And I went for job at Microsoft and I had 8 interviews and then I went for a job at Google and I had 12. And, you know, the level of screening to get the highest quality people has to be there. If there's no bars, then there's no bars to jump over and you sort of get whatever you get right into. And to your point, that might be a strategy that works for someone's business, but if you want to have a brand that's around quality and long-term orientation with your clients, then they can have to be able to depend on that. And so, I love that you're putting real rigorous processes in place to ensure that becomes a predictable part of your brand.

[00:18:05] Marc: And they required leadership, you know, because everyone was doing whatever they were doing, we set the new benchmark and we set literally our own benchmark. And still today, we still set our own benchmark. And as I've mentioned before, you know, sometimes you could think in a skill shortage like we're in right now, it's very unprecedented where we at, you get pressure from the organisation. You go; can we negotiate some of those elements? And for me, they're not negotiable in that sense because we know that they work but that clearly evolve over time as well that we have been able to take certain elements more on in the online environment, and to facilitate easier checking, easier testing for our candidates and on our clients involved in that as well. So, there's an involvement, but the rigidity of the process remains and we're the only ones doing it. So, because we are the only ones doing it, sometimes the organisation goes, well, we burden ourselves for what? Because no one else is doing it and I'm going; well, no one else is growing the organisation to the right we are.  

[00:19:20] Sean: Yep. A hundred percent. And I imagine those conversations have come up so many times over the years where you've got ambitious managers and leaders, who've seen an opportunity and we don't quite have what we need. And if we just relax it a little bit, this same thing happens in education where businesses are like, well, I mean, if we actually might, those assessments a little easier, more students would get through and you're like, yeah, but did they know what they need to know to actually do what they need to do on the other side of that, if you start to drop those standards, which a lot of universities do. Anyway, I won't talk about them. But in the context of people, one of the things that you share with me, and I'd love to just hear your thoughts on everybody has this earliest stage challenge when they're particularly in that sort of sub-20, 30, 40 mil stage where they want the best talent. They know they need great people, but there's a question about whether they can afford it. And at what point do you take a stake and get a really high calibre but expensive person. And can you afford it at the time? And what does that do for your business? I know you had some learnings around that. Can you share us with your thoughts around the way that you've built team and the way that you've thought about attracting and then making decisions around top talent?

[00:20:32] Marc: So, the early stage, it is clearly a tension because it's difficult to attract top players when they’re small and the reason for that is multi-fold. One is money because you think you can't afford it. The other one is also the perception of the person who is going to join you. The larger you get, the more stable you appear and the most safe you appear as an employer to create the career within and so forth. So, really in the beginning, you have not much going for yourself other than storytelling and being visionary about it and ultimately building that vision with a prospective candidate. But my experience in terms of that, that was one element is to hone in on the story and being able to share that with prospective future partners. So, you're going to work with, that they want to be part of this exciting journey and part of that experience. But then the original intention I had it, it was the money I just couldn't afford the people I really wanted, but funnily enough, I could afford to have lots of failed people, I probably didn't want in the process. And then I realised that the amount of money I was spending or wasting on people that really didn't cut the mark was in access to what a good talent in person would have cost me. And then at some point they are ultimately, I made the leap of faith. And are not paid significant more than more the market was meant to pay. And it was just one of these wonderful experience because I certainly wasn't alone anymore. I certainly had wingmen and weighing women with me in the business where I go, wow, this is, this is just amazing. I can actually rely on these people to do the same, or if not, even better than what I would do. And that created a huge amount of momentums at that very moment where I really was able to get the right quality people in my own business because I afforded and invested into these people and the return was multi-fold. It was not even a question. If you have the right people, you can pay him almost as much as you want, and they will return it in that context. But that was very significant for me to understand that if you have the right people, you need to pay the right money because as I said…  

[00:23:12] Sean: Which roles did you double down on first? Like what were the first couple?

[00:23:17] Marc: Look, the first roles were, I guess like in any business, especially when you're smaller, you can't really do anything unless you have money. So, you need to have the sales. So, that's where it starts. It needs to come in on the front door. So, it was really in the sales arena where I started to making that investment and then as the sales started to flow through, certainly quite significantly, I had to make sure I shore up the back end as well in the operation and the delivery space. So, these were sort of the roles, but sales first. And as I said, that made entirely a huge difference, but they also had the buy into the story. They wouldn't just join us for the money as no one does, because they actually won't be part of something exciting, part of something that guides their own future and makes their future a growth career. And you know, I still have people in my business from those early days and they're still top performance today based on that investment secret probably 13 years ago.  

[00:24:24] Sean: Yeah, that's incredible. So, when you think about this journey, I mean, no business journey looks like it did in the spreadsheet that you built around the plan of what you thought you were going to do. It's incredible in a spreadsheet, it's just perfectly aligned and wonderful straight line, but I'm sure it was lumpy along the way. When you think back though, to some of the outside people and outside building your systems around quality and therefore getting repeat customers, getting longer-term customers, being able to charge premium pricing, all of these things you obviously fit very well together. Were there other decisions that you, when you reflect on it, that you made, that you feel like really accelerated the trajectory of the business, or sort of unlocked further scalability in it.

[00:25:13] Marc: Yes, absolutely. I think there's a number of elements in it. I guess there was one particular, at one particular time in our journey where there was something was happening in the market space that really never has happened. One of the largest competitors or… we weren't even a competitor really, but as some of the largest organisation was taken over by a smaller firm and it wasn't done with a good strategy and it wasn't really executed well on us. So, I saw this opportunity coming. I saw this was unfolding and very early on I was starting to, I guess to really get the intel out of that organisation and then was sort of envisaging what may would happen if it does happen. And it was one of these, once in a lifetime opportunity where, so, well, there's a really bad murder about to happen and there will be blood. And when this happens, there's creates huge opportunities, I guess, in terms of people joining me on my journey from a poor business decision and poor execution of someone else. And I saw this coming and there was a little bit, you know, I was a little bit testing in a sense, because actually in my own head, I created an entire plan. As you mentioned, we do a plan and this will unfold. And I did this six months before this acquisition actually was happening and unfolding and then remember I was talking to my executive team and I had a very detailed plan. And I'm just putting in context, I pretty much said; we'll double the company over the next six months by employing people. So, that was quite staggering, you know, at the time we were probably about 50 staff or so. And I said, well, the next six months, we're going to be a hundred and we are going to make all that investment and then this will happen and I’ve done all the numbers across the nation. And my exec team looked at me and say; he's lost it. I don't know where he's coming from. This is a huge risk. But it wasn't for me. I felt it was a managed risk, the way I put the plan together. And I'm not a risk taker. People often look to entrepreneurs and goes; ‘oh, you must be a risk taker.’ I would classify myself far from it. I manage risks. I don't take risks. I can't afford to take. And yes, sometimes things don't go your way and sometimes you have a loss somewhere, but that's still part of the risk management plan. And if you never lose more than 10 to 15% or whatever, then you know, that's manageable. So, we had this plan, no one wanted it. And that's where probably some defining moment, I remember ultimately, I was quite angry. I was like, why can't they see it? Why can't they see what I see? And why are they not on board? That was one of the moments, which I'm usually not, I'm very an inclusive and a servant leader by nature. But I say, ‘guys, this is it. This will never happen in my lifetime again, this is our breaking point. You're either with me or you're against me.’ And either with me or the highway. So, you can choose what you want to do, but this is the plan. So, you go home, you think about it and we'll resume on Monday. That was on a Friday. And we get back in and say, yeah, they're with me or not. And look, and to the credit of the team, some of the team members came for more information, which might have not being detail. And on a Monday, we are all on board and we did it. And that was a defining moment that really leaped us through one of those hurdles in business we all experience where you suddenly have a brick wall and get, sort of get stuck into it. And in hindsight, I didn't think about all these sort of thing, to be honest, I just saw the opportunity. I thought we must do this. And we did. And it's been a cornerstone of our growth of the organisation today. No doubt.

[00:29:36] Sean: I love that. And one of the things I love about that is. When you are…every leader has a different sort of nature and I like you am very consultative and collaborative. And I remember there was, well, had one of my teams away on a retreat somewhere, we’re workshopping this and that bonding and so on. And we had this sort of start, stop, continue session. We were giving each other feedback and all the rest and the team's feedback to me was, you know, Sean, we love that you include us, we love that you seek our opinion, but we would also like to give you five or six JFDI’s a year. And I was like, well, what's the JFDI. And it was, Just *swear word* Do It. Like when you've got an instinct, when you say; Hey guys, we need to go. We will be behind you a hundred percent of the way, but don't feel like you need to over consult on us. If you have that much conviction, it's great that you consult to us on so many other things, but also you’re a leader and we want you to lead. And so, when you feel like it, like go for it, don't do it every day. But when it's required, just give it to us. And that was actually really empowering for me. And I can imagine your team was like; okay, well, that's when your relationship and your servant leadership in all the previous stages comes to bear, doesn't it? Because they're going to have you back because they know that your style is to actually back them and encourage them and empower them. And it's rare that you're going to make a call like that. And so, if you've got that much instinct around it, get behind him.

[00:31:07] Marc: Yeah. And you're probably right. That's where you have different style of leaderships require at different times in your business. You know, sometimes you do have just make the captain call on certain things because yes, you consult and you try to find a hundred percent alignment of everyone in the process, but it's sometimes you have to make the call and you know that happens in all stages of business and no doubt throughout the last few years. Well, you know, two years ago, just about on the date I would think we all have to operate in a different way, and then there wasn't much give and take. It was about, this is what's going to happen now, and this is how we need to do it. And interestingly, as you just mentioned, through that period of time, the last two years on that very moment, and two years ago, the people wanted to exactly that because that was the leadership. Not just from me, but from the direct team to the entire organisation, where they looked for stability and safety. And that's important.  

[00:32:04] Sean: Yeah. Clarity and transparency quickly, like confident assured doesn't mean that you need to know everything and you certainly don't make things up. It's like; Hey, this is what it is. This is what's happening. This is what we're going to do. People get safety from that, I agree. Marc, I'm really interested in the fact that you've chosen to stay in Australia because of course, when everybody, typical strategic planning session. And you're putting all the options on the table. Like, okay, new products, new customers, new markets, et cetera. You're going through your evaluation of all the different opportunities, partnerships, joint ventures, whatever it is. International, of course always comes up on the table from different time to times. I'm sure it's been on your own strategic discussion list from time to time. What has made you choose Australia? Like how did you think about that? Has it reared its head multiple times? When did you sort of make that decision? How and why did you make that decision?

[00:32:57] Marc: Yeah. Exactly. Because if you have a growth mindset, you thinking this and you thinking that. And I made the decision, I actually had a very clear plan. I had a clear plan to expand into the US, I already had an acquisition in mind at the time that would have been very fitting of what we were planning to do to create the foundation and all that. And then funnily enough, I guess as a Founder and a privately owned organisation, there's personal choices come in to your business choices also. So, it's a part of that choice was jeez, because I started this business from scratch. I started some of our main operations myself through fly in-fly out in Sydney and Melbourne in Perth, where for months on end, I was on a plane. I was away from Monday to Friday and I had a growing family at the same time. We had three young children and then the decision came on, jeez, got that stretch between Australia and the US is a bit longer than just a couple hours flight, and that commitment. So that was one aspect, but probably the key aspect was I started to realise what I had on hand here in Australia. I started to realise, I was like, well, we are actually having a really, really good business. Why would I possibly risk, because it was me would have to go do that overseas, did this really solid engine here when I know I can double down, if we are going to double down. Oh, no, I'll come to that in a second what double-down meant for me, but then I know this business will grow significantly faster. So, when you look from a return-on-investment perspective, over a time horizon and whatever that is five years or whatever you go, well, if we double down here, our return on investment is going to be far greater than trying to enter in a very large market, but also very more complicated market in the US, which we don't know, which is really going to fumble about for a few years until you get your bearings and all that. But I came to realisation, I said; doubling down for me means I want to become number in what we do. And that number one really manifested itself and said, what does number one mean? And so why, I guess you can ask, why do you want to be number one? Well, there's a number of things and theories around it. Like, unless you're the first or the second in the market, don't be in the market. But number one, if you are number one, you will know that then you will have all these great aspirations of all these fancy technology companies. But if you are number one, business world flock to you. You know, people will buy that Apple iPhone or whatever it is because they think it's number one, it's the best they want and they want it. And so, business will exponentially grow without the extra effort because suddenly people call you. The other part of number one is, and again, I use Apple. You can charge more for it too. So, you actually have a price competition point in that as well because people really want it and they're willing to pay more for it. So not only do you grow faster, you also make better returns. So, that was the decision at the time where I said, one was a family thing, but then I also, again, I saw the opportunity. I saw where the business was positioned. And if I put the effort here, then we'll have a greater return. And probably like you mentioned before, it was probably another one of those bigger decisions I could have gone that way or that way, but then analysing really the facts and making the plan. Let me to make the decision to stay here and double down. And look, we're still on the path to become number one, and, you know, that certainly keeps us focused. It's a great driver.  

[00:36:58] Sean: That's awesome. And it really requires, to your earlier point around the long-term orientation from the early days, it actually really requires to long-term orientation because you are thinking; Well, I could kind of cut a corner here and I could maybe cut a corner there and you're like, no, no. If I've got a really long-term orientation around this business, I have to build, there is no choice. I will not get to number one without some real differentiation that's defensible, that’s hard to compete with, and some advantages that are going to be, you know, whenever it looks at us and goes; I don't want to go up against those guys because they've got so much more experienced in depth in this sector or with this process or with this part of their value proposition, that's actually really takes a lot of time and a lot of money to compete against, so maybe I just won't try it. Maybe I'll sort of go around them and it sort of creates that moat around it as well, doesn't it?  

[00:37:49] Marc: It's a commitment. That's definitely a commitment. And it doesn't mean that overseas is off the table forever, but it just wasn't right at that point in time, because of that opportunity with we had.  

[00:38:03] Sean: What have you learned Marc about your own leadership over this time? Because not many people end up on a trajectory where they've ended up the CEO or the managing director, and the founder of a company that's got to 4,000 people and the style of leadership and the frameworks and the thinking around leadership really changes. I mean, you see a lot of Founders get off that wagon a lot earlier and go, this business is too big for me. I didn't want to be involved in running a company of this size because you know, you obviously get further away from the coalface, often further away from clients and so on. And I don't see that often people succeed and continue to grow and enjoy the growth that continues or that is necessary all the way out through that chain. What have you learned about your own leadership and what is it that you've learned that allowed you to continue to succeed through those different material changes in employee size and therefore structure of organisation and focus of organisation?

[00:39:08] Marc: That's a good question. Look, I haven't changed as a person. The way I am, I’ve always been really hardworking, that's just by nature, really. So, I think that's a key ingredient that you're willing to work hard because as the company grows bigger, the people want to see that they want to lease the company still working hard and it's not just faffing about and does whatever he does. So that was probably helpful in that context that I actually can't help myself. Look, I think the learning, Sean, really it's the learning of new things. As your business grows, you're presented with different challenges all the time. And obviously, a key element in terms of learning new things is, the deposition you get someone into your current job or part of your current job, but because you really need to grow out of that all the time. When you fast growing, it's relentless. You always need to make sure that you have someone in your team or get new team members who can ultimately take a part of your job away, and then the focus on them to get into the job rather than me getting out of the job. I think that's important, because once they're in the job, you have nowhere else to go to get out of the job and to something else. So, learning has been a key element for me, like lifelong learning, it's an ingrained passion. And you know, obviously I read a lot of books, but you learn a lot by meeting a lot of people as well and constantly move into new era. So, me as a person, I have a personality, I love to explore the unknown. So, through that, we have done things in our business where we go, “I have no idea how this works, but let's go and figure it out and let's put some effort and planning into it and then execute well.” And that's been always very joyful because that's what created who we are today, because we do so much more than what we originally did. So yeah, in that context, look, I hold myself very strongly to account. That's the important element. As a leader, I have to be able to lead this company, when the day comes, where I can't lead the company, I'll have to move out and get someone to do it.  

[00:41:40] Sean: Yep. I imagine, the openness to learning is such a big part of it, and it's also the openness to discomfort, maybe for one of a better word, because each of those uncomfortable situations, you know, the reason I think a lot of the Founders tend to get off that wagon is because they end up in a whole bunch of situations that actually make them caught uncomfortable. And so, one, you can either sort of retreat to the stuff that you're really good at then maybe get somewhere and do it again. And you say lots of people do multiple business ventures over a shorter period of time because they've hit the limit of, okay, maybe it's because of what they enjoyed, but maybe it's also sometimes because they're ending up in a situation where they don't want to keep learning. They can see what they already know is very effective. And so, they'd almost rather leverage what's already effective for them rather than go through the discomfort of actually having to really learn and change, which is required if you're going to continue to scale up an organisation to the size that you've been in.

[00:42:39] Marc: Definitely, that's a requirement. I guess the other part in that for me was, I never stopped being Intrapreneurial, and I think as an entrepreneur, you start your business for a reason, is a diet you want to be in control of your own destiny, or you just like to scrap away from something, with something. And I've been able to maintain a strong entrepreneurial foundation in the business, obviously, as it gets larger, you really need to put a lot of management in to make sure it's managed in its best possible way, but we have a lot of Intrapreneurial freedom in the organisation and that still gets me excited. So, I don't feel like I need to go and start a new venture to get that feeling because I can actually do that within your own business, in certain areas and certain elements of it. And that still stimulates me everyday.

[00:43:31] Sean: Beautiful. Yeah. The context of, I guess sort of intro intrepreneurship rather than entrepreneurship and the ability to continue to innovate inside the company, that is awesome. Marc, I'm conscious that we are close to time. I would like you to sail out now too much further out in the future. I want you to imagine that you're all the way out in your yearning years, and you've built Protect to whatever size that you wanted it to get to you. You've taken on as many challenges as you wanted to form a business perspective and you've really achieved everything that you've ever wanted. And the CEO of the world's largest global community of first-time Founders has tens of millions around the world, around this brand. They're all sort of hungry for wisdom. And they're looking at all the things that you've achieved over this time and thinking; if there was just three things I could get from Marc, the three things that Marc thinks Founders need to get right if they want a scale. Above all else, what would they be for you? What are the three things that you think Founders really need to get right if they want to scale?

[00:44:37] Marc: I know, it sounds often quite a little bit cliche, but the purpose of the business. The purpose of the business is important. And I didn't know that at the time, actually my first sentence on the business plan, which was no plan at the time was the purpose we still have today. And there was a very simple statement and that is in the context of the interaction of the industry we're in, but it was “to be a positive influence in people's lives”. And that sounds very corny in that sense. But purpose has taken on its own life in the organisation and empowers everyone each and every day to do exactly that. If there are the decision point and not quite sure what they should be doing, it, that's the lens to look through and then they’ll know the answers. But for me also, that's always giving me a satisfactory element to do exactly that. And we have built many many things around the company to do an achieve that. And if it doesn't achieve that, we have a mission to change it and really improve that. So, the purpose is important because it keeps it alive. It keeps it real. It keeps it human in my business. And it gives us a lot of joy as an organisation and a buy-in. So that's one thing, but vision, clearly the vision and not being afraid to change the vision and you know because there's some elements there, and then sometimes it changes. And then obviously as you get bigger, the vision gets bigger because you learn more and suddenly you go, jeez, I can actually do that where you never thought about it when we were smaller. But keep the vision alive and no doubt, many of your listeners would have listened to or read the books of Jim Collins and the B hacks, which is aligned to your vision on a big, hairy, audacious goals. I remember, I put that out 10 years ago, which we will be achieving next year with 5,000 employees. And now, I remember back then my team looked at me and then go; whatever.  

[00:46:40] Sean: Yeah.

[00:46:41] Marc: And I was a very lonely dancer in the room there at the time, but I actually manifested this in a visual format and I kept that in my office ever since, and every day I walk into that office, I know what I'm trying to achieve. And unconsciously your mind will start to strive towards that vision. So, if you haven't got the vision, then you mind is never going to achieve its potential to actually trying to find solutions along the way, and you will never jump from A to Z in one hit, there's many steps in between, but they're trying to envisage where can be, is a key element. And long-term view, being patient, which are not. My people will say “you're not patient at all”, but in many ways I am because I know no good things happen easy or quickly. And putting that in place and being convinced about it with a good plan and then stay the course, and do everything you can. So, visionary, have the ideas, stay the course. And you mentioned that before there's many left and rights, up and downs along the way. But ultimately, each and every day, we all work very, very hard in our businesses. We all put a lot blood, sweat, and tears in it and ultimately will achieve it, and that's very satisfying to that. But purpose is important because business grows. And once you have the next level, there'll be the next level, and then there's another level and there's another level, and to keep the satisfaction and the fun in it, purpose has guided me through those levels.

[00:48:26] Sean: I love that. That's absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much. You know, Marc, I'd love to just acknowledge the way that you built this business over 16 years. I mean, it really is a staggering trajectory to get in 16 years from where you were to 400 billion plus, and it's not about the number, but to your point, it's about the soul of your business and the purpose of your business to actually have that positive impact and to become number one so that actually you can increase your ability to succeed in achieving your purpose is only possible three scale. And so, it's not scale for the purpose for the sake of scale and for the sake of money, it's actually scale because it's got a reason, and that's not an easy thing to imbue in a culture when you have that many people. But I can tell that given the why that's driven you over the period of time, that's part of the nature and the DNA of who you are. And I expect you’ve imbued that really well through your leaders and being able to sort of filter that down nicely through the organisation. So, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure for me to get to interview you today, and I'm sure that our audience has got a lot of value out of that. How can people get in touch or follow along with what you or the company you're doing?

[00:49:37] Marc: Yeah, just reach out. I guess they’re very simple, I'm on LinkedIn. The company is called Protech, just send me an email. Well, just give me a call if you find my number. I don't have anywhere to hide, and just feel free to reach out. I know how it is in the pursuit of growth and you're looking for answers. And one thing I've never hesitated is ask questions of people who have walked the path before me, and there's no difference in anyone, you might have some questions around it, just reach out, not just to myself, but any of the business leaders. And I'm sure you'll be received very well and everyone is happy share.  

[00:50:22] Sean: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Marc. Well, folks, I hope you enjoy the show today. Huge thanks to Marc Meili from Protech. Before you go, of course, if you've enjoyed today, feel free to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Our team absolutely loved getting to read those. We like hearing what you love. We like hearing what else you might like to hear about, we obviously love the reviews. You can jump on the website www.scaleupspodcast.com and register your email there if you'd like to know when new podcasts are going to drop, of course you can subscribe on the podcast and platforms. You can find us on all the socials on @scaleupspodcast. But to everyone listening today, Marc’s story has been such a great example of this, you've heard Marc has had in his office, he's vision that he has looked at every single day. The only thing that can guarantee that you won't be able to scale in the future is giving up along the way. And it's so easy to do because stuff gets hard, but you've got to stay unshakable in your faith. You've got to have a real reason to be in business and you'd go to remain flexible in your approach or stay the course, as Marc said, be willing to tack and change, but stay the course. You've been listening to the ScaleUps Podcast. I'm Sean Steele. And I look forward to speaking with again next week. Thanks again so much, Marc.